I agree with most of these excerpts, but I'd like to see evidence for the claim that Western culture is the main cause of our tendency to rationalize post hoc arguments for our moral intuitions. I suspect that much of it is an innate human tendency, and that Western culture just mediates which rationalizations are considered persuasive to others.
If they ran some version of the incest thought experiment in non-Western societies, that is, I predict you could get the same 'moral dumbfounding' effect; you'd just have to construct the scenario in a way that negates that culture's standard rationalizations.
Agree and furthermore suggest that this goes beyond morality itself: people make fast perceptual judgments that proceed directly from salient features to categories to inferred characteristics. Brother-sister love -> "incest" -> "wrong" in the same way that human shape -> "human" -> "mortal". The moral judgment is just one more inferred characteristic from the central category.
Minor point: I find Julie-and-Mark-like examples silly because they ask for a moral intuition about a case where the outcome is predefined. Our moral intuition makes arguments of the form "behavior X usually leads to a bad outcome, therefore X is wrong". So if the outcome is already specified, the intuition has nothing to say; nor would we expect it to, since the whole point of morality is to help you make decisions between live possibilities, so why should it have anything to say about a situation that has already happened/cannot be altered?
Or to put it another way, I'm surprised no one said something to the effect of "Julie and Mark shouldn't have had sex because at the time they did they had no way of knowing that it would turn out well, and in fact every reason to believe it would turn out very badly, based on the experiences of other incestuous siblings."
For concreteness, imagine a different story where Julie and Mark decide to play Russian roulette in their cabin (again, just for fun). They both miss the bullet, no harm results, and they never tell anyone etc. etc. So what was wrong with their actions?
I think most people would be able to handle that one very quickly. So the really interesting question is why no-one comes up with such an explanation in the incest case.
Expecting evolved moral instincts to conform exactly to some simple unifying principle is like expecting the orbits of the planets to be in the same proportion as the first 9 prime numbers or something. That which is produced by a complex, messy, random process is unlikely to have some low complexity description.
An interesting analogy. I mean, who would predict something crazy like the square of the orbital period being proportional to the cube of the orbital radius?
Obviously there's no unifying principle in all that messy moral randomness. No hidden laws, just waiting to be discovered...
Ugh. Where to start...
One might well ask: why does any of this indicate that moral propositions have no rational justification? The arguments presented here show fairly conclusively that our moral judgements are instinctive, subconscious, evolved features. Evolution gave them to us.
Yes, because evolution gave us the instincts that solved the prisoner's dilemma and made social life possible. Which is why Jonathan Haidt finds it more helpful to define morality as, rather than being about harm and fairness, something like:
Moral systems are interlocking sets of values, practices, institutions, and evolved psychological mechanisms that work together to suppress or regulate selfishness and make social life possible.
Green is basically screaming bloody murder at how people stupidly conclude that incest is wrong in a case where some bad attributes of incest don't apply, and how this is part of a more general flaw involving people doing an end-run around the usual need to find rational reasons for their moral judgments.
His view is in complete ignorance of recent ground-breaking research on the nature of human morality (see above link). Basically, most secular academics think of ...
Greene and Haidt have coauthored papers together, so I would guess they are aware of each other's work!
Agreed that this is true and important. It is odd to me that so many more people accept the ideas of behavioral economics and evolutionary psychology, yet don't take the obvious leap to question whether our moral intuitions are a hard-wired module that evolved to serve our genetic interests, and thus feel like a window onto objective truth, yet are very very different from a sensory perception.
Here's an example that may help introspectively honest people, partly inspired by a blog post of PJ Eby's. Consider the social nature of guilt and shame. That is,...
Voted Down. Sorry, Roko.
I don't find Greene's arguments to be valuable or convincing. I won't defend those claims here but merely point out that this post makes it extremely inconvenient to do so properly.
I would prefer concise reconstructions of important arguments over a link to a 377 page document and some lengthy quotes, many of which simply presuppose that certain important conclusions have already been established elsewhere in the dissertation.
As an exercise for the reader demonstrating my complaint, consider what it would take to work out whether Jo...
There's been a lot of discussion about that incest question, but I don't think anyone's come out and said whether they think the scenario represents a moral transgression. I wonder what folks here think of the scenario. In fact, let's consider three scenarios:
There's been a lot of discussion about that incest question, but I don't think anyone's come out and said whether they think the scenario represents a moral transgression.
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The mistake philosophers tend to make is in accepting rationalism proper, the view that our moral intuitions (assumed to be roughly correct) must be ultimately justified by some sort of rational theory that we’ve yet to discover.
The author seems to assert that this is a cultural phenomenon. I wonder if our attempts at unifying into a theory might not be instinctive, however. Would it then be so obvious that Moral Realism were false? We have an innate demand for consistency in our moral principles, that might allow us to say something like "racism i...
Ok, i skimmed that a bit because it was fairly long, but here's a few observations...
I think the default human behavior is to treat what we perceive as simply being what is out there (some people end up learning better, but most seem not to). This is true for everything we percieve, regardless of the subject matter - i.e. is nothing specific to morality.
I think it can -- sometimes -- be reasonable to stand by your intuition even if you can't reason it out. Sometimes it takes time to figure out and articulate the reasoning. I am not trying to justify obs...
But I cannot seriosuly entertain the prospect of a "from first principles" argument producing the human moral mess. No way. It was this observation that finally convinced me to abandon my various attempts at objective ethics.
I agreed but came to the opposite conclusion. Because I think that an ethics of naive moral intuition leads to worse outcomes than a fairly robust consequentialism/virtue ethics, I use the latter to trump the former.
Minor quibble, interesting info :
"like expecting the orbits of the planets to be in the same proportion as the first 9 prime numbers or something. That which is produced by a complex, messy, random process is unlikely to have some low complexity description"
The particular example of the planet's orbit is actually one where such a simple rule exists : see the law of Titius Bode
our moral judgements are instinctive, subconscious, evolved features...
To a first approximation, yes. But sometimes people here underestimate the importance of culture in shaping morality. See the sub-discipline of cultural psychology, e.g. Richard Shewder. Jon Haidt and Joshua Greene rightly place more emphasis on the biological basis and evolutionary origins of morality, but there is still quite a bit of room for culture.
So we have here a 'guess' about what people actually trained to think about morality might be thinking, as well as reasoning based on what people insufficiently trained in morality think.
If anything, this might serve as an argument that we need to actually treat ethics seriously, and teach it to everybody (not just philosophers).
He seems to regard intuition as though it's not a sort of perception. That seems clearly wrong.
I was amazed to note that this was being presented in a philosophy department. But then, I don't know what Princeton's department is like.
It seems inconsistent to be denying moral realism and then making claims about what sort of language we should be using.
Thank you for introducing the position of the thesis. I started reading it a couple of times, but never got very far.
It's a fine effort for correcting stupidity, but the argument given here shouldn't be carried too far either. For example, a lot of the misleading points in the above quotes can be revealed by analogizing prior with utility, as two sides of (non-objective) preference. Factual judgments are not fundamentally different from moral judgments on the subjective-objective scale, but factual judgments can often be so clear that an argument for them ...
This seems like just another example of our tendency to (badly) rationalize whatever decisions we made subconsciously. We like to think we do things for good reasons, and if we don't know the reasons we'll make some up.
Is your basic thesis here that (a) because "morals" are, for the most part, based on something that is not rational, and (b) because most people will nonetheless do their best to justify even the most irrational of their morals, (c) there is therefore no point in trying to construct a morality that is based in rationality?
That's what it sounds like, but I wanted to make sure I had it right before launching into commentary...
Today on BloggingHeads is a diavlog between Joshua Greene and Joshua Knobe: Percontations: Explaining and Appraising Moral Intuition.
As a moral nihilist and/or egoist I tend to agree with the general sentiment of this article, though I would not take the tack of saying morality needs to be reformed - it's so nonsensical and grinding it may be as possible (and more beneficial) to simply stop pretending magical rules and standards need apply.
I'm very sympathetic to Greene's views. In fact, I'm mid way through a philosophy PhD on evolution and morality myself (more at http://ockhamsbeard.wordpress.com/). However, I'd never read Greene's entire dissertation - so thanks for the link.
On his views, there's one point I'd like to raise. The reason why "people tend to believe that moral judgments are produced by reasoning even though this is not the case" goes back to the evolutionary roots of our moral intuitions.
Assuming that morality has evolved to encourage pro-social behaviour, it’s pla...
If anyone can think of a way to condense this post, i.e. cut some stuff out, then let me know. I may give it a go myself later today.
Julie and Mark would have to be good at keeping their experiment secret. If they had a good experience together, having not harmed each other nor themselves, that golden rule, the trust of experience and emotions, could anyone else know the purity in their hearts? The sexuality of the question is interesting to me. When we are with a lover in the usual ways, are we really alone with them? It can take many years of trust to melt into love, have a change of consciousness, of unity. The incest question makes me think of these siblings, they could be each...
But the intuition has to come from reason initially, no? Like, the first human ever who had thoughts about incest didn't have a heuristic obtained from his parents or the society.
Joshua Greene has a PhD thesis called The Terrible, Horrible, No Good, Very Bad Truth About Morality and What To Do About It. What is this terrible truth? The essence of this truth is that many, many people (probably most people) believe that their particular moral (and axiological) views on the world are objectively true - for example that anyone who disagrees with the statement "black people have the same value as any other human beings" has committed either an error of logic or has got some empirical fact wrong, in the same way that people who claim that the earth was created 6000 years ago are objectively wrong.
To put it another way, Greene's contention is that our entire way of talking about ethics - the very words that we use - force us into talking complete nonsense (often in a very angry way) about ethics. As a simple example, consider the use of the words in any standard ethical debate - "abortion is murder", "animal suffering is just as bad as human suffering" - these terms seem to refer to objective facts; "abortion is murder" sounds rather like "water is a solvent!". I urge readers of Less Wrong to put in the effort of reading a significant part of Greene's long thesis starting at chapter 3: Moral Psychology and Projective Error, considering the massively important repercussions he claims his ideas could have:
As an accessible entry point, I have decided to summarize what I consider to be Greene's most important points in this post. I hope he doesn't mind - I feel that spreading this message is sufficiently urgent to justify reproducing large chunks of his dissertation - Starting at page 142:
One might well ask: why does any of this indicate that moral propositions have no rational justification? The arguments presented here show fairly conclusively that our moral judgements are instinctive, subconscious, evolved features. Evolution gave them to us. But readers of Eliezer's material on Overcoming Bias will be well aware of the character of evolved solutions: they're guaranteed to be a mess. Why should evolution have happened to have given us exactly those moral instincts that give the same conclusions as would have been produced by (say) great moral principle X? (X = the golden rule, or X = hedonistic utilitarianism, or X = negative utilitarianism, etc).
Expecting evolved moral instincts to conform exactly to some simple unifying principle is like expecting the orbits of the planets to be in the same proportion as the first 9 prime numbers or something. That which is produced by a complex, messy, random process is unlikely to have some low complexity description.
Now I can imagine a "from first principles" argument producing an objective morality that has some simple description - I can imagine starting from only simple facts about agenthood and deriving Kant's Golden Rule as the one objective moral truth. But I cannot seriosuly entertain the prospect of a "from first principles" argument producing the human moral mess. No way. It was this observation that finally convinced me to abandon my various attempts at objective ethics.