pjeby comments on Atheism = Untheism + Antitheism - Less Wrong

86 Post author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 01 July 2009 02:19AM

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Comment author: pjeby 03 July 2009 03:19:36AM 0 points [-]

The world is merely perceived as consisting of already existing things, and the cause of their being is to be found in other things that used to exist, and the question as to why the whole big causal network exists - why there is anything at all in the first place, not just this or that particular thing right now - is not noticed or is shrugged off in various ways.

But the question itself only arises from the nature of human mental models, which have to contain "why's". The universe itself doesn't have things labeled "causes" and "effects"; these are labels that human brains attach.

Or to put it more pointedly - the universe doesn't need a why. That's just something (some) humans want.

Comment author: Mitchell_Porter 04 July 2009 01:16:00AM 1 point [-]

Focusing on names, and on the contingency of the names we give things, or whether we even notice them for long enough to give them a name, is a great way to shrug off "metaphysical" problems like this.

P.J. Eby, are you really saying there's no such thing as cause and effect? That the smashing of the glass on the floor has nothing to do with the dropping of it the moment before?

Comment author: Cyan 04 July 2009 04:18:15AM *  3 points [-]

Judea Pearl's perspective on this question is that causality is best viewed as an intervention originating from outside the system in question, and not as a mode of behavior within that system. In this view, causality is related to counterfactual queries we might ask about the system, e.g., if an intervention had forced situation X, would Y have occurred? Because the intervening agent always stands outside the system, causality is always relative to where we draw the boundary around the system, and thus is not a property of reality.

Comment author: pjeby 04 July 2009 02:04:47AM -2 points [-]

are you really saying there's no such thing as cause and effect? That the smashing of the glass on the floor has nothing to do with the dropping of it the moment before?

"Smashing", "glass", and "floor" also only exist as labels, because reality only has one level.

(See also Timeless Physics for why "cause and effect" aren't what we think they are, either.)

Comment author: Vladimir_Nesov 04 July 2009 10:20:59AM 2 points [-]

That territory has only one level (a thesis of reductionism) means that it doesn't compute in terms of high-level concepts, but the high-level concepts still refer to the real clusters of configurations of territory.

Comment author: orthonormal 04 July 2009 02:31:37AM 1 point [-]

We know that "the glass smashed on the floor" is a high-level interpretation, a genuinely complicated cluster in thingspace. In the vast majority of cases we encounter, it's a pretty useful and well-delineated cluster, which is why it all adds up to normality. So too with cause and effect in timeless physics.

Comment author: pjeby 04 July 2009 04:05:28AM -1 points [-]

You're drifting off topic. My original post in this thread was saying that "the universe doesn't need a why". Are you actually disagreeing with that conclusion?

(Heck, I can't even tell if you're disagreeing with what I just said.)

Comment author: orthonormal 04 July 2009 08:33:16PM 3 points [-]

I do agree that the universe as a whole may not have what we would consider a "why"; however, I think it's quite ridiculous to argue for that conclusion by attempting to discard talk of causality within the universe.