orthonormal comments on Absolute denial for atheists - Less Wrong

39 Post author: taw 16 July 2009 03:41PM

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Comment author: SilasBarta 16 July 2009 07:19:58PM 17 points [-]

You're wrong about the religious issue. As I've stated many times, including in that discussion, the problem is that there are two meanings of "believe" and people unhelpfully equivocate between them. Here they are:

1) "I believe X" = "My internal predictive model of reality includes X."

2) "I believe X" = "I affiliate with people who profess, 'I believe X' " (no, it's not as circular as it looks)

Put simply, most people DO NOT believe(1) in the absurd claims of religions, they just believe(2) them. Or at least, they act very suspiciously like they believe(2) rather than believe(1). If they believed(1), they would spend every waking moment exactly as their religion instructs.

Comment author: orthonormal 16 July 2009 11:08:04PM 13 points [-]

If they believed(1), they would spend every waking moment exactly as their religion instructs.

That's too strong a claim and doesn't factor akrasia in; you might as well say that you don't really believe in the seriousness of existential risks if you don't spend every waking moment working against them.

You can, however, make distinctions between people who will make decisions that they know would be extremely suboptimal if their professed belief was false, and people who only do just enough to signal their belief.

It's going to be a continuum from belief(1) to belief(2), not a binary attribute; but it's still a very important concept and not yet one that the English language groks.

Comment author: SilasBarta 16 July 2009 11:19:40PM 3 points [-]

That's too strong a claim and doesn't factor akrasia in; you might as well say that you don't really believe in the seriousness of existential risks if you don't spend every waking moment working against them. [...]

Okay, fair point. My claim was too strong and I accept your modification. Still, existential risks still permit me finite remaining life, which still keeps its utility very very far from that of eternal torture espoused by some religions.

Comment author: TheNuszAbides 04 July 2013 07:17:55AM *  0 points [-]

a very important concept and not yet one that the English language groks.

having achieved [at least a semblance of] fluency only in English thus far, I am at this moment very curious as to any assessment of what language(s) do(es) grok such a concept?

Comment author: [deleted] 04 July 2013 10:47:20AM 0 points [-]

Dunno, but note that whereas "I believe X" can mean either, "I think that X" seldom means 2.