MugaSofer comments on Sayeth the Girl - Less Wrong

47 Post author: Alicorn 19 July 2009 10:24PM

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Comment author: MugaSofer 25 February 2013 07:19:06PM -1 points [-]

An excellent point, if perhaps a little strong, (objectifying men could simply be less of an issue,) but dan is saying that "That's the way it is. I don't get much heartburn over it anymore."

It is absolutely worth pointing out that neither sex is immune to objectification. Objectification is still bad. Just because I've been forced to put up with something doesn't mean everyone should just suck it up.

Comment author: [deleted] 27 February 2013 12:54:29PM *  5 points [-]

Another interpretation of his point: “It's hypocritical for women to complain about being objectified by men, because they also objectify men themselves.” That's only a valid point if the women who resent being objectified are the same women who objectify men, which is probably not the case.

Other examples of this failure mode are “Jerusalemites hailed Jesus as a deity when he came back, but five days later they were shouting for Pontius Pilate to crucify him” (maybe he had both supporters and opposers, who weren't the same people?) and “people are always protesting about that politician, but he keeps on being re-elected” (maybe young people protest and old people vote for him, or something like that).

Comment author: fubarobfusco 04 March 2013 08:19:44PM -1 points [-]

It's an inference drawn from a mixture of fallacies of composition and division and the availability heuristic.

"I notice Jerusalemites supporting Jesus, therefore Jerusalem supports Jesus. I notice Jerusalemites opposing Jesus, therefore Jerusalem opposing Jesus. Jerusalem both supports and opposes Jesus; therefore Jerusalem is fickle; therefore Jerusalemites are individually fickle ... and should feel bad about their fickleness."

Comment author: wedrifid 26 February 2013 11:46:12AM 5 points [-]

Objectification is still bad.

Or awesome, depending on your preference in the specific instance.

Comment author: MugaSofer 04 March 2013 07:53:47PM -2 points [-]

For most meanings of "objectification", I figured this possibility is so unusual as to be irrelevant. Am I missing something?

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 25 February 2013 11:59:45PM *  4 points [-]

Objectification is still bad.

What do we mean by "objectification"? I would argue that the Baysianism-utilitarianism epistemology cloud around here objectifies all people and all subsets of people by reducing them to the status of tools or victory points, and no one seems particularly concerned about this until the subset being objectified becomes that set of all females.

Comment author: fubarobfusco 26 February 2013 12:58:46AM 1 point [-]

What do we mean by "objectification"?

From Rachael's comment:

I am simply astounded at the men here confidently asserting that they aren't alienating women when they talk about "getting" "attractive women" and speak of women as symbols of male success or indeed accessories for a successful male. This reduces me and other females (including female rationalists) to the category of a fancy car or a big house, and I feel humiliated when I read it.

Or ... look it up. The top three or four results for "objectification of women" on your favorite search engine may be enlightening.

Comment author: [deleted] 27 February 2013 01:13:38PM 3 points [-]

EY is opposed to not-caring-about-whether-your-sexual-partner-is-sentient (which is my understanding of the top Google hit for that phrase), FWIW.

Comment author: fubarobfusco 28 February 2013 05:57:44AM *  4 points [-]

It seems to be a bit more than that. Sometimes sexual objectification seems to include wishing a potential sexual partner were nonsentient — treating people as if they ought to be automata to serve your wishes, and that it's an outrage that they don't act like it.

It's one thing to say, "I wish I had a sexbot." It's another thing to say, "You shouldn't exist; instead there should exist a sexbot in your image, for me."

Comment author: [deleted] 28 February 2013 08:56:02AM 2 points [-]

First thought was, “WTH? If all those people want is to masturbate using someone else's body, why don't they just pay for a prostitute?”, then I remembered that prostitution is illegal in plenty of places. (Now I'm curious whether stuff like date rape drug use is more prevalent in places where prostitution is illegal than where it isn't.)

Comment author: wedrifid 28 February 2013 10:39:58AM *  3 points [-]

First thought was, “WTH? If all those people want is to masturbate using someone else's body, why don't they just pay for a prostitute?”, then I remembered that prostitution is illegal in plenty of places.

Possible reasons:

  • Illegality (as you mention).
  • Perceived (and as far as I know actual) greater risk of STDs than with their likely alternative partner.
  • Price. (ie. "I wish I owned a house" is a plausible wish even if only because then they would not have to rent.)
  • Different expected behavior from a sexbot than a prostitute. The "masturbation" experience is presumably enhanced by various behaviors and expression of the sex toy (be it human or robotic). Related to the price reasoning in as much as the price of a "Full Girlfriend Experience" encounter with a prostitute is likely to be far greater than an encounter with someone who puts less effort into acting out an engaged experience.
  • Pride, conquest and ego. People like to be achieve and be validated. There are few things that are more validating for humans than to have mates of a suitable level of attractiveness desire your sexual attention.
  • Robots are cool. Sexbots are sometimes hilarious.
  • Hygene is much easier to manage with sexbots. Not only can you control access to the bot and so prevent exposure to the bodily fluids of unknown strangers, a sexbot can outright detach the relevant robo-parts and wash them in the sink.
  • Sexbots can (presumably) be more easily customized to have specific combinations of traits and easily switch between diverse roles or fetishes.
Comment author: [deleted] 28 February 2013 01:22:04PM *  1 point [-]

I'm not always sure which instances of “sexbot” in your comment are supposed to be literal and which are supposed to be metaphorical. Anyway...

Pride, conquest and ego. People like to be achieve and be validated. There are few things that are more validating for humans than to have mates of a suitable level of attractiveness desire your sexual attention.

That would require your partner to be sentient, wouldn't it?

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 01 March 2013 01:46:55AM 3 points [-]

That would require your partner to be sentient, wouldn't it?

Or to have been sentient.

Comment author: Luke_A_Somers 05 May 2013 05:10:46PM 2 points [-]

The squick has been doubled!

Comment author: jooyous 28 February 2013 08:08:16PM 1 point [-]

Haha, not quite. I think you'd want it to be sentient just enough to provide a challenge but turn off its sentience whenever it becomes unpleasant or inconvenient.

Comment author: wedrifid 28 February 2013 03:20:31PM *  1 point [-]

I'm not always sure which instances of “sexbot” in your comment are supposed to be literal and which are supposed to be metaphorical.

Whichever works (which in some cases means both).

That would require your partner to be sentient, wouldn't it?

Yes, quite right. My mental cache evidently used too much compression and the reconstruction thereof failed to include the necessary explanation. The ego related possible answer that I originally intended was of course that factors of pride and validation of sexual appeal may be absent in both cases and so "just pay a prostitute" would not help them.

Comment author: jooyous 28 February 2013 07:07:04AM *  2 points [-]

I'd like to chime in and say that if this seems absurd and incredible and who does that ... Uhh. That's happened to me. It's not fun. Maybe a bit more tangled up, but almost exactly that.

Comment author: [deleted] 28 February 2013 08:53:38AM 1 point [-]

Which one were you, the one who wished your partner were nonsentient or the one whom your partner wished were nonsentient?

Comment author: jooyous 28 February 2013 09:09:46AM *  3 points [-]

Yeah, I was the annoyingly sentient one. The conversation went something like

I want you to do [thing].

Okay, but you know me. That's really not part of my personality.

But you're my girlfriend.

In that context, if you solve for the taboo meaning of the word "girlfriend", it basically comes out to nonsentient sexbot. But he wasn't trying to be evil, he was just quite innocently incredulous and couldn't figure out what was wrong with the world.

Comment author: wedrifid 28 February 2013 10:20:18AM *  5 points [-]

In that context, if you solve for the taboo meaning of the word "girlfriend", it basically comes out to nonsentient sexbot.

Would he agree with that description? Maybe he would, or perhaps there are other things that he said or did that make your attribution of meaning valid. However in themselves the words quoted are just as compatible with the taboo meaning being "someone who executes a set of behaviors that happen to include X, Y and also [thing]". That is a matter of someone having incompatible romantic preferences and who has made incorrect assumptions about your conformance to a particular social contract.

Again, I'm not saying the description is incompatible with him wishing you were a non-sentient sexbot. Rather, that this particular story doesn't come anywhere near making that interpretation the most plausible.

Comment author: jooyous 28 February 2013 06:15:12PM *  -1 points [-]

Well no, it specifically comes out to "someone who executes a set of behaviors that happens to include [thing] even when those behaviors go against their personality". So it's someone that puts aside their personality and does things that feels weird and uncomfortable that they wouldn't do otherwise because their "boyfriend" wants them to.

Comment author: [deleted] 28 February 2013 07:20:26PM 3 points [-]

(Now I'm reminded of someone in the Italian edition of Loveline asking a question starting with “I've been with my girlfriend for a year, but we haven't had sex yet” and being answered with something starting more-or-less with “first of all, if you aren't having sex with her, then by definition she's not your girlfriend; she's just a friend”.)

Comment author: jooyous 28 February 2013 08:04:46PM -1 points [-]

What'd you think when you heard it?

Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 28 February 2013 08:36:47PM 7 points [-]

Were you a mono couple? Members of mono couples sometimes have ideas about an obligation to fulfill all the other person's sexual and romantic needs since the partner can't go anywhere else. Perhaps he had asymmetrical ideas about this and would not have obliged if you'd made a similar request, but if the notions were symmetrical then it's not a sexbot thing. One reason I'm careful not to date women who aren't dating any other men is that my life is full of other and overriding demands, and I don't want to be someone's only boyfriendly recourse.

Comment author: jooyous 28 February 2013 08:58:00PM *  4 points [-]

Yeah, I agree that there are circumstances in which this works out. But we were mono and he was very asymmetrical and he had no idea that he was asymmetrical. (There was stuff to which I told him to find another girl, but he'd get mad if I was talking to another guy.) Like the thought that he was asking me for way more stuff than he would be willing to do (and that there's anything wrong with that) just never crossed his mind. So he was innocently confused and frustrated about why things weren't going his way.

This also gets into the issue of manipulating language to sneak in blind spots into the meanings of words. "A girlfriend is someone who should make me happy, and not doing [thing] makes me unhappy, so it's your fault I'm unhappy." But again, the scariest part was that he wasn't trying to be evil! He just did all of his reasoning in that kind of spotty language that was skewed in his favor. And then constantly couldn't figure out why the territory ... wasn't.

Comment author: jooyous 26 February 2013 01:05:11AM *  0 points [-]

There's no problem with seeing women as status tools or victory points if you explicitly state that what you're playing is a woman-collecting game, or a lay-collecting game, number-close game, etc. Some people might frown at your choice of game for moral reasons, but they'll admit that you're doing the strategically correct thing with respect to your game's objective.

The problem arises when you say that you're winning at "relationships" or you claim your game is what "everyone knows" to be how relationships work or that's how "the" game is played. That is when "everyone" gets pissed. We don't want to be lumped into that group.

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 26 February 2013 01:11:02AM 2 points [-]

The problem arises when you say that you're winning at "relationships" or you claim your game is what "everyone knows" to be how relationships work or that's how "the" game is played.

That's not the claim. The claim is that everyone does this, but most people prefer to believe they're doing something else.

Comment author: jooyous 26 February 2013 01:19:19AM *  3 points [-]

Oh, I think I agree in that case. Objectifying people is okay because people are really complicated and sometimes you only need to consider one property of a person in order to compute your goals if you're maximizing utility along some one axis. Sure!

Objectifying people is bad when it hurts them.

no one seems particularly concerned about this until the subset being objectified becomes that set of all females.

When people are concerned about it, it's probably because it hurts them.

Comment author: wedrifid 26 February 2013 03:39:30PM 4 points [-]

When people are concerned about it, it's probably because it hurts them.

Or because they expect to gain from indicating concern.

Comment author: jooyous 28 February 2013 02:39:29AM *  -1 points [-]

Few things:

  • Hurt people expect to gain compassion, understanding and future not-hurtfulness from indicating concern. I don't understand why you have the "or" there. (I'm also constantly confused how "or" usually means "xor" in English.)
  • Why do you say gain like it's a bad thing? Don't people expect to gain something from doing anything?
Comment author: wedrifid 28 February 2013 02:51:43AM *  1 point [-]

Hurt people expect to gain compassion, understanding and future not-hurtfulness from indicating concern that they are hurt. I don't understand why you have the "or" there.

'And' would be unambiguously incorrect. 'Or' is correct, obviously doesn't exclude the possibility that the gain could be of the kind your mentioned and also allows for the other possibilities.

Why do you say gain like it's a bad thing? Don't people expect to gain something from doing anything?

Why do you read gain like it's a bad thing? I have no objection to gain. I'm not judging the expression of concern one way or another, merely commenting on which situations concern is expressed. It is worth making such a comment because the quoted prediction was misleadingly simple.

Comment author: jooyous 28 February 2013 03:06:26AM *  -1 points [-]

Okay, but if you're saying gain isn't a bad thing, then you're not really saying anything. Maybe it would help if you name these other things that can be gained by expressing concern?

I'm [...] merely commenting on which situations concern is expressed

But you're not, because you didn't name any situations.

I can't quite explain why it feels trivial to read gain as a good thing, but I have an example. Positive version:

When someone goes to a job interview, it's probably because they want the job.

Or because they expect to gain from the interview.

It's kind of confusing, right? It's like "Err, yes. That's what I said." Compared to:

When someone starts a soup kitchen, it's probably because they want to help starving people.

Or because they expect to gain from the soup kitchen.

That's why I read it as the second one.

Comment author: [deleted] 03 March 2013 11:06:04AM *  1 point [-]

(I'm also constantly confused how "or" usually means "xor" in English.)

Not quite. The denotation of “A or B” is normally “A or B”, though it often has the connotation “but not both”. “A and/or B” has the same denotation but lacks that connotation. See the first sentence of the fifth paragraph of this.

Comment author: Creutzer 03 March 2013 12:44:30PM *  2 points [-]

The term connotation is usually used for what distinguishes the meanings of "dog" and "cur". The exclusivity of "or" seems to be a rather different thing and is commonly regarded as a conversational implicature (which explains why it disappears under negation, for instance). Whether that's really correct is somewhat debatable, especially because nobody really knows what the denotation of "or" actually is; but calling it connotation strikes me as misleading.

Comment author: [deleted] 03 March 2013 02:26:30PM 0 points [-]

Yes, "conversational implicature" is the more precise term for that, but I used "connotation" instead because I thought it was close enough and it is more widely known among LW readers. (I thought that the main difference was that the latter is usually applied to words and the former to sentences; is there another important one?)

Comment author: MugaSofer 04 March 2013 07:39:04PM *  -2 points [-]

It seems to have multiple meanings and connotations all blurring into each other. Possible meaning include:

  • "Treating someone as a means rather than an end." I'm generally OK with treating people as means, as are most LWers AFAICT, but relationships (and to a lesser extent morality) is expected to include having their desires as part of your goal structure.
  • "Treating someone as not having goals of their own." Objectively wrong, obviously, and if you genuinely believe or alieve this you're likely to run into some problems, I guess.
  • "Treating someone as only existing only to serve as a status symbol, "sex object" or housekeeper." More subtle than the second one, as it relates to goals rather than beliefs, but ultimately has the same problems if you're a neurotypical human or similar.
  • "Focusing on the utility someone's body provides, rather than their mind/personality." Depends on your goals, I guess, but probably not conductive to healthy relationships and many would argue it causes all sorts of subtle societal problems.

Most people mean many or all of these when they say "objectifying" due to connotations and sloppy terminology. A few also include "Treating someone as governed by instinct rather than as a sentient being", especially when discussing PUA.

Does that answer your question?

Comment author: [deleted] 27 February 2013 01:07:39PM *  0 points [-]
Comment author: Eugine_Nier 28 February 2013 02:01:28AM 2 points [-]

I made the same point there as well.

Comment author: [deleted] 25 February 2013 09:27:14PM 2 points [-]

but dan is saying that "That's the way it is. I don't get much heartburn over it anymore."

Ah, that part I had glanced over. Well, that's a case of Generalizing from One Example: ‘[I don't mind {noise, clutter, being objectified}, therefore it's not a big deal and] if you complain about it you're oversensitive.’