SoullessAutomaton comments on AndrewH's observation and opportunity costs - Less Wrong

22 Post author: Yvain 23 July 2009 11:36AM

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Comment author: Yvain 23 July 2009 07:47:01PM *  9 points [-]

...no, I don't see why that means one shouldn't give money to beggars.

Let's say beggars in my city can make $1/hour. Everyone who, in a world without begging, would have made <$1/hour becomes a beggar, and everyone who in a world without begging would have made >$1 hour does not become a beggar.

Now let's say people in my city become more generous and give more money. The number of beggars cannot increase without the wage of beggars also increasing, because the only reason more people would become beggars is that there is a higher incentive, and if the influx of new beggars drive wages back down, those new beggars will "quit" their "job" and the hourly wage will stabilize. So it may be that now beggars earn $2/hour, and everyone who would earn <$2/hour at normal labor quits and becomes a beggar.

In a country with a minimum wage, this suggests that no one will ever leave a job for begging until a beggar's wage exceeds minimum wage; despite the horror stories I don't think this has happened here. It suggests that the population of beggars will probably consist of the people who would have a (low-paying) job if there was no minimum wage but can't get any job in the current regulatory climate. These people seem worth helping.

In a country with no minimum wage, begging establishes an effective minimum wage. That is, if beggars can earn $1/day, then no one will work for less than $1/day because they'd rather beg. This may be bad from an economic standpoint, but it's good from a humanitarian standpoint; it means we can be assured every poor person in the country will earn at least $1/day, whether working or begging, and that no one will have to make do with less. If people become more generous and donations rise to $2/day, this just means that all poor people can be assured of a little bit more money. This seems like exactly what people donating to beggars have as their goal.

Although it may leave a bad taste in our mouths that beggars are quitting their fifty-cent-a-day jobs for begging, if we place a greater value on people not having to live on fifty cents a day than we do on the "moral value of hard work", we are making people better off. We'd have to balance that against the lost productivity of these beggars' fifty-cent-a-day jobs,but if they're only earning fifty cents a day, they can't produce all that much.

[possible counter-argument: if you have a fifty-cent-a-day job, you might learn skills and get promoted. This seems a much more relevant concern in a first world country than in a third world country, where most people labor at dead-end jobs their whole lives, and since first world countries generally have minimum wages anyway, I don't consider it too important]

[this argument probably only works in Economics Land; I think gworley does a better job of describing what happens in the real world.]

Comment author: SoullessAutomaton 23 July 2009 11:28:14PM 8 points [-]

You seem to be assuming that begging is unskilled "work" and thus all beggars make roughly the same "wage" on average. I highly doubt this is the case; a beggar who can more effectively evoke sympathy in passers-by will make a better haul.

For instance, in an urban environment, a beggar probably wants to maximize their exposure to naive folks from out of town; urban residents will probably have learned to ignore the begging more effectively. With a population sufficiently generous and gullible, it's entirely possible that, for people with few career prospects, it will only be the ones too incompetent to beg who will end up in no-skill minimum wage work.

On the higher end, this also blends into buskers and low-level "my wallet was stolen, I need money for a train ticket to get home to my kids" type scamming as more sophisticated (and profitable) forms.

See also this article.

Comment author: thomblake 23 July 2009 11:34:35PM 0 points [-]

I'm glad you included a link on this one. Until I got to that, it seemed like pure armchair theorizing.

Comment author: SoullessAutomaton 23 July 2009 11:43:21PM *  5 points [-]

It was armchair theorizing, informed by knowledge I have acquired, including memories of articles such as the one linked to. I actually wrote the whole comment before looking up that article based on vague recollection of it.

That said, the assumption that an activity that one does to acquire money should, in absence of bureaucratic meddling, pay similar amounts independent of skill at the activity, seems to me far more implausible by default than the opposite.