FrankAdamek comments on AndrewH's observation and opportunity costs - Less Wrong

22 Post author: Yvain 23 July 2009 11:36AM

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Comment author: Yvain 23 July 2009 07:47:01PM *  9 points [-]

...no, I don't see why that means one shouldn't give money to beggars.

Let's say beggars in my city can make $1/hour. Everyone who, in a world without begging, would have made <$1/hour becomes a beggar, and everyone who in a world without begging would have made >$1 hour does not become a beggar.

Now let's say people in my city become more generous and give more money. The number of beggars cannot increase without the wage of beggars also increasing, because the only reason more people would become beggars is that there is a higher incentive, and if the influx of new beggars drive wages back down, those new beggars will "quit" their "job" and the hourly wage will stabilize. So it may be that now beggars earn $2/hour, and everyone who would earn <$2/hour at normal labor quits and becomes a beggar.

In a country with a minimum wage, this suggests that no one will ever leave a job for begging until a beggar's wage exceeds minimum wage; despite the horror stories I don't think this has happened here. It suggests that the population of beggars will probably consist of the people who would have a (low-paying) job if there was no minimum wage but can't get any job in the current regulatory climate. These people seem worth helping.

In a country with no minimum wage, begging establishes an effective minimum wage. That is, if beggars can earn $1/day, then no one will work for less than $1/day because they'd rather beg. This may be bad from an economic standpoint, but it's good from a humanitarian standpoint; it means we can be assured every poor person in the country will earn at least $1/day, whether working or begging, and that no one will have to make do with less. If people become more generous and donations rise to $2/day, this just means that all poor people can be assured of a little bit more money. This seems like exactly what people donating to beggars have as their goal.

Although it may leave a bad taste in our mouths that beggars are quitting their fifty-cent-a-day jobs for begging, if we place a greater value on people not having to live on fifty cents a day than we do on the "moral value of hard work", we are making people better off. We'd have to balance that against the lost productivity of these beggars' fifty-cent-a-day jobs,but if they're only earning fifty cents a day, they can't produce all that much.

[possible counter-argument: if you have a fifty-cent-a-day job, you might learn skills and get promoted. This seems a much more relevant concern in a first world country than in a third world country, where most people labor at dead-end jobs their whole lives, and since first world countries generally have minimum wages anyway, I don't consider it too important]

[this argument probably only works in Economics Land; I think gworley does a better job of describing what happens in the real world.]

Comment author: FrankAdamek 24 July 2009 05:42:54AM 4 points [-]

Living for a few years in an area that had a somewhat regular beggar population, I think the psychology of begging can't go unexamined. There's more at play than just how much money you can get: prominently the dislike of doing "actual work" and the already mentioned suffering of the beggar stigma. From my experience the sort of people who beg are not so much the people who can't get any jobs (unless won't = can't, motivationally speaking), but people with low or uniquely valued enough self-esteem to suffer the stigma, and who would much rather sit on the street corner than do the 9 to 5 day in and day out. Unfortunately I don't have experimental data on this. Of course they're mixed in with the people who really can't get jobs, but giving to beggars for me at least factors in how much I want to reward people who have the above mentioned preferences.

Comment author: d_m 24 July 2009 02:59:58PM 4 points [-]

It's worth pointing out that where I live (a major east coast city) the vast majority of the homeless population seem to have drug, social and/or mental problems, ranging from obviously but mild to incredibly severe. Of course this data is somewhat anecdotal but I have enough friends who are social workers to feel relatively confident about it. There doesn't seem to be a large class of people making strategic plans to beg based on expected return.

For reference, I don't give money to beggars (due to concerns about how that money will be used), but I do try to give food to beggars, and I support tax money being used for public health projects. I guess this exposes me as someone who supports interventionist social policies in some cases.

Comment author: FrankAdamek 24 July 2009 06:40:02PM 3 points [-]

I like the idea of giving actual food away, being something they almost certainly are going to get something worthwhile out of. My father used to keep bag lunches of prepackaged food in his car for that reason.