Rationality Quotes - August 2009
A monthly thread for posting any interesting rationality-related quotes you've seen recently on the Internet, or had stored in your quotesfile for ages.
- Please post all quotes separately (so that they can be voted up/down separately) unless they are strongly related/ordered.
- Do not quote yourself.
- Do not quote comments/posts on LW/OB - if we do this, there should be a separate thread for it.
- No more than 5 quotes per person per monthly thread, please.
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Comments (118)
The problem with engineers is that they tend to cheat in order to get results.
The problem with mathematicians is that they tend to work on toy problems in order to get results.
The problem with program verifiers is that they tend to cheat on toy programs in order to get results.
the UNIX fortune-cookie program; original source unknown
“To rationalize their lies, people -- and the governments, churches, or terrorist cells they compose -- are apt to regard their private interests and desires as just.”
--Wendy Kaminer (A woman social activist)
You need to attribute quotes (and, as per the rules above, you can't quote yourself).
yeah, just totally missed it...edited now
-Terry Pratchett, Mort
-Mark Twain
-Buddha
On the same theme:
-- Buddha, Tattvasamgraha
Whenever, then, anything in nature seems to us ridiculous, absurd or evil, it is because we have but a partial knowledge of things, and are in the main ignorant of order and coherence of nature as a whole, and because we want everything to be arranged according to dictates of our own reason; although in fact, what our reason pronounces bad is not as bad as regards the order and laws of universal nature, but only as regards the order and laws of our own nature taken separately.... As for the terms good and bad, they indicate nothing positive considered in themselves...For one and the same thing can at the same time be good, bad and indifferent. For example, music is good to the melancholy, bad to mourners and indifferent to the dead. ---Spinoza
From the story of philosophy by Will durant
Ha ha, a literally rationalist quote!
Can somebody tell me what is wrong with the above quote? Just curious, because I already see downvotes on it
You admitted to reading secondary sources.
What is wrong with that?
Alice came to a fork in the road. "Which road do I take?" she asked. "Where do you want to go?" responded the Cheshire cat. "I don't know," Alice answered. "Then," said the cat, "it doesn't matter." ~Lewis Carroll, Alice in Wonderland
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it. ~Andre Gide
I forget if I've posted this before, but:
"I've noticed that the press tends to be quite accurate, except when they're writing on a subject I know something about." -- Keith F. Lynch
Not sure about others, but my first reaction was that we should not trust the press as much, but then I realized that isn't the whole story. So this is for the sake of making it explicit: It could be that when the news comes to talk about something you are an expert in, you were simply nitpicking, using your superior knowledge in a particular domain to show off.
How do we tell? Perhaps there are other ways, but I would focus on relevance. Does my extra knowledge of the subject really affect the conclusions of this op-ed?
-- Terry Pratchett, Small Gods
-- Terry Pratchett, Small Gods
"A witty saying proves nothing." -- Voltaire
I've always found that useful to keep in mind when reading threads like this.
I think this should go at the top of all monthly Rationality Quotes posts as an epigraph.
Or an epitaph.
John Von Neumann
That seems like the perfect condemnation for his book on quantum mechanics.
This is also the guy who said "Young man, in mathematics you don't understand things. You just get used to them." Wikipedia says that what the young man didn't understand is the method of characteristics, which sounds like it should be understood, from what little I know about it.
Do you have a source or context for this quote?
No, I've come across it many times but never seen a source. Wikiquote includes it but without a source.
Saul Perlmutter
Cletus O. Oakley
Francis Bacon
"Most men are so thoroughly subjective that nothing really interests them but themselves. They always think of their own case as soon as any remark is made, and their whole attention is engrossed and absorbed by the merest chance reference to anything which affects them personally, be it never so remote: with the result that they have no power left for forming an objective view of things, should the conversation take that turn; neither can they admit any validity in arguments which tell against their interest or their vanity."
Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)
"The account of perception that’s starting to emerge is what we might call the “brain’s best guess” theory of perception: perception is the brain’s best guess about what is happening in the outside world. The mind integrates scattered, weak, rudimentary signals from a variety of sensory channels, information from past experiences, and hard-wired processes, and produces a sensory experience full of brain-provided color, sound, texture, and meaning. ... Perception is inference."[emphasis added]
- Atul Gawande
-- Marcus Tullius Cicero
[ while in general I value philosophy, there is also much nonsense and, especially, little progress ]
Robert Nozick, Philosophical Explanations, qtd. in Daniel Dennett, Elbow Room
But what thermostats don't control is... what the thermostat is set to.
Another control system does that. The chain tops out somewhere, of course.
Allan didn't say otherwise.
Richard didn't say otherwise.
Eliezer didn't say... oh sod it.
Whitehead, Alfred North (1861 - 1947), An Introduction to Mathematics.
In J. R. Newman (ed.), The World of Mathematics, New York: Simon and Schuster, 1956.
~ Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged
[ I'm actually not too fond of objectivism, but this quote is spot-on ]
You say "slave morality" like it's a bad thing.
Could you please explain?
There is no mentioning of slave morality at all; it's about people trying to subjugate others with words like 'sacrifice'.
Even If you see a relation to Nietzsche's master/slave-morality, the quote clearly is not in support of that at all.
"As an adolescent I aspired to lasting fame, I craved factual certainty, and I thirsted for a meaningful vision of human life - so I became a scientist. This is like becoming an archbishop so you can meet girls."
-- M. Cartmill
-Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Which he recited right in front of a senate committee in the process of trying to get more funding for PBS, I think it was.
-- Karl Popper
-- David Hill
You've made essentially this argument yourself, and I've been wondering: How is causal determinism "presupposed in the concept of human action"?
Can't I do things without the results being guaranteed?
"Can't I do things without the results being guaranteed?"
Yes; it's called ignorance. It's not called freedom.
You're not providing evidence. You're just presupposing what he's asking for evidence of.
Upvoted for giving a definite answer.
But just to make sure I've been clear, I meant to refer to whether the results are guaranteed in the absolute sense (causal determinism) regardless of whether they are guaranteed to match my expectations.
If you mean quantum fluctuations, that's also something you're ignorant of. It doesn't make you free, though. It's just randomness.
Freedom is the freedom to say that 2+2=4. Or that 2+2=goldfish, if that's what floats your boat. The important thing is that your words are determined by your goals. Basically, free will is will that happens to be free.
If the freedom you seek is freedom to change your GOALS (like bad habits), well, I guess we are restricted to a degree. I like to think of such goals as not really mine, but those of a beast that lives in my body. I am free.
The quote was about freedom. My question was about causal determinism, and it wasn't about the relationship between causal determinism and freedom.
I reread your first post, and I think that you might have understood the word "action" too literally. Determinism is not presupposed in ANY human action, but to plan your next move, you need some idea of what its effect will be. And to do that, you need rules. That's causality.
You can do things without the results being guaranteed.
But you cannot do anything, be responsible for any action, without causality.
RobinZ has pointed out that there's a difference between causality and causal determinism.
You're losing sight of the original question. People who believe in free will don't deny causality.
I personally recommend A Contemporary Introduction to Free Will by Robert Kane to anyone interested in that kind of question - it's short, and except when dealing with Kane's own theory (which it only does for the last few chapters), quite fair-minded.
But to address your remark: one problem with declaring indeterminism in human decision-making is how it interacts with cases where the decision is obvious. Suppose you were visiting a town you only ever traveled to once a decade, and in that town you went to a restaurant serving the greatest (let's say) minestrone soup in the world. You haven't eaten minestrone soup at all for a year, you love the stuff, it's the cheapest thing on the menu, and you're leaving tomorrow so you know you gotta get you some of this.
If you are causally determined to order the minestrone soup, are you acting of your own free will when you do?
If you are not, then are you acting of your own free will if you don't?
(I steal this example from my "Action and Responsibility" class a year or two ago, but it's a good one.)
Beats me. I guess it depends on what you mean by free will. (There are so many different meanings that I don't like to use the phrase.) It also doesn't answer my question at all.
If you explained how the fact that it's possible to order soup proves that events are perfectly predictable in theory, that would answer my question.
Well, how did you mean your question? I mean, the answer is obviously, "of course you can act without guaranteed results, that's every action anyone has ever taken ever." Except that it's an utterly inane result which the people in the free will community (mostly) don't care about, and this entire debate is in the free will community, and needs to be understood in the context of compatibilism and incompatibilism.
See, there are numerous philosophers (and non-philosophers) whose model of free choice is "choice which could go either way, even under the exact same circumstances" - and they interpret it logically, that you could load the save file from before the decision and see them switch. If that's the nature of a free decision, then you run into the problem of the soup, here - apparently, you're only free to order the soup if you've got some measurable chance of not ordering the soup, despite that you'd have to be crazy or stupid to not order the soup. Which is counterintuitive, because nobody's holding a gun to your head - it looks like an exemplar of a free decision unless you're committed to that sort of philosophy.
Well, if it's true that "causal determinism is presupposed in the very concept of human action," then it should stay true when I'm talking about causal determinism and human action alone--and I should be able to ask for an explanation.
In other words, how does the fact that people do order soup show that if you load the save file, you're guaranteed the same result? I know it's used as a step in proofs about "free will," but I'm asking about the step, not the proofs. Another proof rebutting some of the people who don't like the first proof isn't an answer.
Wait, are you asking the empirical question, "do human decision-making processes operate in a deterministic fashion"? As far as I can tell, the answer is approximately "yes" (at least at scales typical of ordering food at a restaurant without influence from nondeterministic random-number generators), the aforementioned can-go-either-way philosophers are committed to the opposite answer (or to believing that we're just automata), and the people you really should be asking are the cognitive scientists and neuroscientists. Of which I am neither.
I'll try another rephrasing: I have been told that "causal determinism is presupposed in the very concept of human action." I look at the concept of human action and see no presupposition about causal determinism. So I ask, "Where in the concept is this presupposition? I can't find it."
...my, I am an idiot. No, it certainly doesn't look presupposed - I imagine someone is misunderstanding (Edit: or equivocating) the term "causal determinism". Causality is presupposed, but not determinism.
I was also frustrated by Hill's vagueness on what seemed to be an important point (perhaps he elaborates later?). In any case, I can tell you what I think Hill was thinking when he wrote that, though I'm not exceptionally confident about it.
The concept of human action--of making plans and following through with them--seems to be based on the assumption that the world is fundamentally predictable. We make decisions as if the future can to some extent be determined by a knowledge of the present, paired with a set of well-defined rules.
The natural objection to this would be that human action only presupposes some ability to predict the future, but not the perfect ability that might be possible if causal determinism is true. However, one could argue that it is far more natural to assume that the future is completely predictable, at least hypothetically, based on the fact that even our limited knowledge of the laws of nature seems to give us a good deal of predictive power. After all, there are many things we cannot yet do, but this would seem to be poor evidence that they are logically impossible.
So in my mind, Hill wasn't trying to make a definitive case for causal determinism, only observing that it is the far more natural conclusion to draw, based on the planning-oriented way human beings interact with the world.
I'm surprised that's gotten so many upvotes. It's just a very long way of saying "Why do people disagree with me?" without providing any reasons to agree. The sudden switch to talking about causal determinism is a non-sequitur.
Causal determinism is presupposed in the concept of human action? Um, no. Belief in free will is not the same as denial of causality.
-- DanielLC
Suitably pithy, but that really should be the other way around shouldn't it?
NB: I recognise the difference between quoting and approving of the quote.
My understanding is that the quote is meant to invert the way we normally think of consequentialism (that making the world a better place is doing the right thing). The quote simply puts the logic in causal order, such that we can naturally say "I am doing the right thing if (and only if?) it makes the world a better place."
Well, you need an implicit "and doing the wrong thing does not" before it becomes logically equivalent to consequentialism.
-- Steven Pinker, How The Mind Works
-- Henry David Thoreau, Walden
-- Ibsen, 1881
--Karl Marx, The Eighteenth Brumaire of Louis Bonaparte (1852)
--Lewis Mumford, quoted in The Clock of the Long Now
—Fyodor Dostoyevsky, Notes from the Underground
(Self-promotion: this is the epigraph to the novella I'm working on, which is not really about rationality but is about what we're pleased to call "human nature", and which you may read the beginning of here if so inclined.)
Reading through that, I itch to give feedback (even if just the spelling alone). What's the best way to do that?
Read the first chapter of your novella. Were it not for the delineation I probably would still be reading and hiding from sleep. Work tomorrow, I expect I'll come back to it after.
exactly. and that's a man simply trying to gain his point. The bottleneck for the ideas on this blog finding reality are in f*d up economic incentives and feedback loops. I think it's asenine of us to stick to our ball to the wall INTJ-ness in light of the current economic and political events. it may not be that bad, but it's light years away from the optimum.
-- Richard Feynman The Character of Physical Law
Ken Binmore
"It’s hard to argue with a counter-example."
-- Roger Brockett
A co-worker of mine regularly responds to counterexamples of software designs, examples which show where the design breaks, with "Show me an example from a real user case". :-(
"If you’ve never missed a flight, you’re spending too much time in airports."
-- Umesh Vazirani (as quoted by Scott Aaronson)
Huh. Do you know the original source for that quote? Because I came across it (with no attribution given) in Steven Landsburg's book Fair Play, and while it's not so original a thought that it couldn't have been thought of independently, someone stealing seems more likely.
-- Tailsteak
Being willing to die for a cause is being willing to kill for a cause, with the caveat that your devotion is so lukewarm that you limit yourself to killing at most one person.
A true superhero would die or kill to save the world, as the situation dictated.
"God ha' mercy! What cannot be racked from words in five centuries? One could wring, methinks, a flood from a damp clout!"
Shakespeare in the 20th century, as imagined by Isaac Asimov in "The Immortal Bard".
-- Roger Zelazny, as Corwin ("Nine Princes in Amber").
Which book is this? I might read it for the context.
"Nine Princes in Amber"
A verse from Jonathan Richman's song, "Summer Feeling," on memory.
This quote is so utterly alien to me that I must ask why it was selected.
Your strength as a rationalist is your ability to be more confused by fiction than by reality.
--Eliezer (http://lesswrong.com/lw/if/your_strength_as_a_rationalist/)
From the OP: do not quote comments/posts on LW/OB.
got it
"Do not be too moral. You may cheat yourself out of much life. Aim above morality. Be not simply good; be good for something" Thoreau
-- Mencius Moldbug, teaching us how to argue any point persuasively. (In this example he's talking about the Allies vs Nazi Germany.)
-- Terry Pratchett, Small Gods
Hyman G. Rickover
"If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts, you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity."
-- Deuteronomy 25:11-12 (New International Version)
The point of a quote is usually obvious, but this one isn't. The original writers were simply laying down their sexist laws - but why are you quoting it?
I can't speak for Rune, but I think it's interesting because it's awfully specific. It's an example of the conjunction fallacy that someone thought this important enough to be a rule. To my common-law mind, it would be more sensible if it were something like "...even if it's to save her husband." And maybe it did mean that, since conjunctions are a common place for miscommunication.
Yeah, my interpretation was similar. It is far too specific to simply be used as an exhibit of sexist thinking.
Mencius said, "Whenever anyone told him that he had made a mistake, Tzu-lu was delighted. Whenever he heard a fine saying, Yü bowed low before the speaker. The Great Shun was even greater. He was ever ready to fall into line with others, giving up his own ways for theirs, and glad to take from others that by which he could do good."
"You can't tell what someone is doing by watching what they're doing."
-- Richard Marken
"Action speaks nothing, without the Motive."
-- anonymous fortune cookie