SforSingularity comments on Utilons vs. Hedons - Less Wrong

28 Post author: Psychohistorian 10 August 2009 07:20PM

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Comment author: PhilGoetz 11 August 2009 01:40:56AM 4 points [-]

I have the sense that much of this was written as a response to this paradox in which maximizing expected utility tells you to draw cards until you die.

Psychohistorian wrote:

There's a bigger problem causing that causes our intuition to reject this hypothetical as "just wrong:" it leads to major errors in both utilons and hedons. The mind cannot comprehend unlimited doubling of hedons. I doubt you can imagine being 260 times as happy as you are now; indeed, I doubt it is meaningfully possible to be so happy.

The paradox is stated in utilons, not hedons. But if your hedons were measured properly, your inability to imagine them now is not an argument. This is Omega we're talking about. Perhaps it will augment your mind to help you reach each doubling. Whatever. It's stipulated in the problem that Omega will double whatever the proper metric is. Futurists should never accept "but I can't imagine that" as an argument.

As for utilons, most people assign a much greater value to "not dying," compared with having more hedons. Thus, a hedonic reading of the problem returns an error because repeated doubling feels meaningless, and a utilon reading (may) return an error if we assign a significant enough negative value to death. But if we look at it purely in terms of numbers, we end up very, very happy right up until we end up very, very dead.

We need to look at it purely in terms of numbers if we are rationalists, or let us say "ratio-ists". Is your argument really that numeric analysis is the wrong thing to do?

Changing the value you assign life vs. death doesn't sidestep the paradox. We can rescale the problem by an affine transformation so that your present utility is 1 and the utility of death is 0. That will not change the results of expected utility maximization.

Comment author: SforSingularity 11 August 2009 01:39:04PM 0 points [-]

But if your hedons were measured properly, your inability to imagine them now is not an argument. This is Omega we're talking about. Perhaps it will augment your mind to help you reach each doubling. Whatever. It's stipulated in the problem that Omega will double whatever the proper metric is. Futurists should never accept "but I can't imagine that" as an argument.

In ethical and axiological matters, it is an argument.

If Omega alters your mind so that you can experience "doubled utility", and you choose not to identify with the resultant creature, then Omega has killed you.

Comment author: PhilGoetz 12 August 2009 05:30:31PM 1 point [-]

I can't imagine any situation in which "I can't imagine that" is an acceptable argument. QED.

Comment author: UnholySmoke 11 August 2009 10:01:50PM 1 point [-]

And thus, the alcoholic who wishes to sober up, but is unable, dies with every slug of cheap cider!

It's not an argument at all. Otherwise the concept of utilons as a currency with any...currency, is nonsense.

Comment author: SforSingularity 11 August 2009 10:03:35PM 0 points [-]

And thus, the alcoholic who wishes to sober up, but is unable, dies with every slug of cheap cider!

I don't understand. Can you make this point clearer?

Comment author: UnholySmoke 11 August 2009 10:10:24PM 0 points [-]

Somewhat off-topic, but: Many people do many things that they have previously wished not to do, through coercion or otherwise. And when asked 'are you still you' most would probably answer in the affirmative.

If Omega doubled your fun-points and asked you if you were still you, you would say yes. Why would you-now be right and you-altered be wrong?

The concept of a currency of utility is very counterintuitive. It's not how we feel utility. However, if we're to shut up and calculate (which we probably should) then 'I can't imagine twice the utility' isn't a smart response.

Comment author: SforSingularity 11 August 2009 10:30:17PM 0 points [-]

If Omega doubled your fun-points and asked you if you were still you, you would say yes. Why would you-now be right and you-altered be wrong?

I don't know. But I do know for sure that if Omega doubled them 60 times, the resultant being wouldn't be me.

Comment author: UnholySmoke 12 August 2009 10:30:19AM 0 points [-]

At which doubling would you cease being you? Or would it be an incremental process? What function links 'number of doublings' to 'degree of me-ness'?

I don't think we're going anywhere useful with this. But I do know that if you get too tight on continuous personal identity and what that means, you start coming up with all sorts of paradoxes.

Comment author: SforSingularity 15 August 2009 02:50:29PM 0 points [-]

But that doesn't mean that we should just give up on personal identity. The utility function is not up for grabs, as they say: if I consider it integral to my utility function that I don't get significantly altered, then no amount of logical argument ought to persuade me otherwise.