timtyler comments on Ingredients of Timeless Decision Theory - Less Wrong

43 Post author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 19 August 2009 01:10AM

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Comment author: timtyler 19 August 2009 08:38:41AM *  0 points [-]

Re: "Some concluding chiding of those philosophers who blithely decided that the "rational" course of action systematically loses"

Some of those philosophers draw a distinction between rational action and the actions of a rational agent - see here:

I conclude that the rational action for a player in the Newcomb Paradox is taking both boxes, but that rational agents will usually take only one box because they have rationally adopted the disposition to do so.

So: these folk had got the right answer, and any debate with them is over terminology.

Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 19 August 2009 03:22:16PM 1 point [-]

This is the crippleware version of TDT that pure CDT agents self-modify to. It's crippleware because if you self-modify at 7:00pm you'll two-box against an Omega who saw your code at 6:59am.

Comment author: rwallace 19 August 2009 05:48:37PM *  2 points [-]

By hypothesis, Omega on examining your code at 6:59, knows that you will self-modify at 7:00 and one-box thereafter.

Consider that every TDT agent must be derived from a non-TDT agent. There is no difference in principle between "I used to adhere to CDT but self-modified to TDT" and "I didn't understand TDT when I was a child, but I follow it now as an adult".

Correction made, thanks to Tim Tyler.

Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 22 August 2009 09:03:18PM 1 point [-]

By hypothesis, Omega on examining your code at 6:59, knows that you will self-modify at 7:00 and one-box thereafter.

CDT agents don't care. They aren't causing Omega to fill box B by changing their source code at 7pm, so they have no reason to change their source code in a way that takes only one box. The source code change only causes Omega to fill box B if Omega looks at their source code after 7pm. That is how CDT agents (unwisely) compute "causes".

Comment author: rwallace 23 August 2009 09:17:11AM 0 points [-]

Yes, but the CDT agent at seven o'clock is not being asked to choose one or two boxes. It has to choose between rewriting its algorithm to plain TDT (or DBDT or some variant that will one box), or to TDT with an exception clause "but use the old algorithm if you find out Omega's prediction was made before seven o'clock". Even by straight CDT, there is no motive for writing that exception.

Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 23 August 2009 07:34:58PM *  4 points [-]

Even by straight CDT, there is no motive for writing that exception.

This is the point at which I say "Wrong" and "Read the literature". I'm not sure how I can explain this any more clearly than I have already, barring a full-fledged sequence. At 7pm the CDT agent calculates that if it modifies its source to use the old algorithm in cases where Omega saw the code before 7pm, it will get an extra thousand dollars on Newcomb's Problem, since it will take box A which contains an additional thousand dollars, and since its decision to modify its code at 7pm has no effect on an Omega who saw the code before 7pm, hence no effect on whether box B is full. It does not reason "but Omega knows I will change my code". If it reasoned that way it would be TDT, not CDT, and would one-box to begin with.

Comment author: rwallace 23 August 2009 11:06:26PM 0 points [-]

Actually I will add another comment because I can now articulate where the ambiguity comes in: how you add self modification to CDT (which doesn't have it in the usual form); I've been assuming the original algorithm doesn't try to micromanage the new algorithm's decisions (which strikes me as the sensible way, not least because it gives better results here); you've been assuming it does (which I suppose you could argue, is more true to the spirit of the original CDT).

Comment author: rwallace 23 August 2009 10:21:28PM 0 points [-]

I still disagree, but I agree that we have hit the limits of discussion in this comment thread; fundamentally this needs to be analyzed in a more precise language than English. We can revisit it if either of us ever gets to actually programming anything like this.

Comment author: timtyler 20 August 2009 07:07:20AM *  -1 points [-]

By hypothesis, Omega on examining your code at 6:59, knows that you will self-modify at 7:00 and two-box thereafter.

By what hypothesis? That is not how the proposed Disposition-Based Decision Theory says it works. It claims to result in agents who have the disposition to one-box.

Comment author: rwallace 20 August 2009 10:48:48PM 1 point [-]

Sure. This sub thread was about plain CDT, and how it self-modifies into some form of DBDT/TDT once it figures out the benefits of doing so -- and given the hypothesis of an omniscient Omega, then Omega will know that this will occur.

Comment author: timtyler 21 August 2009 05:43:49AM *  -1 points [-]

In that case, what I think you meant to say was:

Omega on examining your code at 6:59, knows that you will self-modify at 7:00 and ONE-box thereafter.

Comment author: rwallace 21 August 2009 07:44:28AM 1 point [-]

Doh! Thanks for the correction, editing comment.

Comment author: timtyler 19 August 2009 05:46:01PM *  0 points [-]

I don't see any reason for thinking this fellow's work represents "crippleware".

It seems to me that he agrees with you regarding actions, but differs about terminology.

Here's the CDT explanation of the terminology:

A way of reconciling the two sides of the debate about Newcomb's problem acknowledges that a rational person should prepare for the problem by cultivating a disposition to one-box. Then whenever the problem arises, the disposition will prompt a prediction of one-boxing and afterwards the act of one-boxing (still freely chosen). Causal decision theory may acknowledge the value of this preparation. It may conclude that cultivating a disposition to one-box is rational although one-boxing itself is irrational. Hence, if in Newcomb's problem an agent two-boxes, causal decision theory may concede that the agent did not rationally prepare for the problem. It nonetheless maintains that two-boxing itself is rational. Although two-boxing is not the act of a maximally rational agent, it is rational given the circumstances of Newcomb's problem.

The basic idea of forming a disposition to one-box has been around for a while. Here's another one:

Prior to entering Newcomb's Problem, it is rational to form the disposition to one-box.

  • Realistic decision theory: rules for nonideal agents ... by Paul Weirich - 2004

...and another one:

"DISPOSITION-BASED DECISION THEORY"

This stronger view employs a disposition-based conception of rationality; it holds that what should be directly assessed for ‘rationality’ is dispositions to choose rather than choices themselves. Intuitively, there is a lot to be said for the disposition to choose one-box in Newcomb’s problem – people who go into Newcomb’s problem with this disposition reliably come out much richer than people who instead go in with the disposition to choose two-boxes. Similarly, the disposition to cooperate in a psychologically-similar prisoners’ dilemma reliably fares much better in this scenario than does the disposition to defect. A disposition-based conception of rationality holds that these intuitive observations about dispositions capture an important insight into the nature of practical rationality.

Comment author: RickJS 22 September 2009 12:28:53AM 0 points [-]

In Eliezer's article on Newcomb's problem, he says, "Omega has been correct on each of 100 observed occasions so far - everyone who took both boxes has found box B empty and received only a thousand dollars; everyone who took only box B has found B containing a million dollars. " Such evidence from previous players fails to appear in some problem descriptions, including Wikipedia's.

For me this is a "no-brainer". Take box B, deposit it, and come back for more. That's what the physical evidence says. Any philosopher who says "Taking BOTH boxes is the rational action," occurs to me as an absolute fool in the face of the evidence. (But I've never understood non-mathematical philosophy anyway, so I may a poor judge.)

Clarifying (NOT rhetorical) questions:

Have I just cheated, so that "it's not the Newcomb Problem anymore?"

When you fellows say a certain decision theory "two-boxes", are those theory-calculations including the previous play evidence or not?

Thanks for your time and attention.

Comment author: JGWeissman 24 September 2009 06:38:38PM 0 points [-]

For me this is a "no-brainer". Take box B, deposit it, and come back for more.

There is no opportunity to come back for more. Assume that when you take box B before taking box A, box A is removed.

Comment author: RickJS 25 September 2009 03:37:46AM 0 points [-]

Yes, I read about " ... disappears in a puff of smoke." I wasn't coming back for a measly $1K, I was coming back for another million! I'll see if they'll let me play again. Omega already KNOWS I'm greedy, this won't come as a shock. He'll probably have told his team what to say when I try it.

" ... and come back for more." was meant to be funny.

Anyway, this still doesn't answer my questions about "Omega has been correct on each of 100 observed occasions so far - everyone who took both boxes has found box B empty and received only a thousand dollars; everyone who took only box B has found B containing a million dollars."

Someone please answer my questions! Thanks!

Comment author: Johnicholas 25 September 2009 11:23:34AM *  0 points [-]

The problem needs lots of little hypotheses about Omega. In general, you can create these hypotheses for yourself, using the principle of "Least Convenient Possible World"

http://lesswrong.com/lw/2k/the_least_convenient_possible_world/

Or, from philosophy/argumentation theory, "Principle of Charity".

http://philosophy.lander.edu/intro/charity.shtml

In your case, I think you need to add at least two helper assumptions - Omega's prediction abilities are trustworthy, and Omega's offer will never be repeated - not for you, not for anyone.

Comment author: eirenicon 22 September 2009 12:57:33AM 0 points [-]

That's what the physical evidence says.

What the physical evidence says is that the boxes are there, the money is there, and Omega is gone. So what does your choice effect and when?

Comment author: RickJS 24 September 2009 05:10:02PM 1 point [-]

Well, I mulled that over for a while, and I can't see any way that contributes to answering my questions.

As to " ... what does your choice effect and when?", I suppose there are common causes starting before Omega loaded the boxes, that affect both Omega's choices and mine. For example, the machinery of my brain. No backwards-in-time is required.

Comment author: timtyler 26 June 2011 06:18:53PM *  -2 points [-]

This is the crippleware version of TDT that pure CDT agents self-modify to. It's crippleware because if you self-modify at 7:00pm you'll two-box against an Omega who saw your code at 6:59am.

Penalising a rational agent for its character flaws while it is under construction seems like a rather weak objection. Most systems have a construction phase during which they may behave imperfectly - so similar objections seem likely to apply to practically any system. However, this is surely no big deal: once a synthetic rational agent exists, we can copy its brain. After that, developmental mistakes would no longer be much of a factor.

It does seem as though this makes CDT essentially correct - in a sense. The main issue would then become one of terminology - of what the word "rational" means. There would be no significant difference over how agents should behave, though.

My reading of this issue is that the case goes against CDT. Its terminology is misleading. I don't think there's much of a case that it is wrong, though.

Comment author: timtyler 19 August 2009 09:03:41AM *  0 points [-]

Eric Barnes - while appreciating the benefits of taking one box - has harsh words for the "taking one box is rational" folk.

I go on to claim that although the ideal strategy is to adopt a necessitating disposition to take only one box, it is never rational to choose only one box. I defend my answer against the alternative analysis of the paradox provided by David Gauthier, and I conclude that his understanding of the orthodox theory of rationality is mistaken.

Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 22 August 2009 09:14:02PM *  4 points [-]

(Sigh.)

Yes, causal decision theorists have been saying harsh words against the winners on Newcomb's Problem since the dawn of causal decision theory. I am replying to them.

Comment author: timtyler 26 June 2011 07:35:30PM -1 points [-]

Yes, causal decision theorists have been saying harsh words against the winners on Newcomb's Problem since the dawn of causal decision theory. I am replying to them.

Note that this is the same guy who says:

that rational agents will usually take only one box because they have rationally adopted the disposition to do so.

He's drawing a distinction between a "rational action" and the actions of a "rational agent".

Comment author: SilasBarta 22 August 2009 10:35:38PM 2 points [-]

Newcomb's Problem capriciously rewards irrational people in the same way that reality capriciously rewards people who irrationally believe their choices matter.

Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 22 August 2009 09:12:38PM *  1 point [-]

(Looks over Tim Tyler's general trend in comments.)

Okay. It's helpful that you're doing a literature search. It's not helpful that every time you find something remotely related, you feel a need to claim that it is already TDT and that TDT is nothing innovative by comparison. It does not appear to me that you understand either the general background of these questions as they have been pursued within decision theory, or TDT in particular. Literature search is great, but if you're just spending 15 minutes Googling, then you have insufficient knowledge to compare the theories. Plenty of people have called for a decision theory that one-boxes on Newcomb and smokes on the smoking lesion - the question is coughing up something that seems reasonably formal. Plenty of people have advocated precommitment, but it comes with its own set of problems, and that is why a non-precommitment-based decision theory is important.

Comment author: Cyan 23 August 2009 12:21:40PM *  0 points [-]

In the spirit of dredging up references with no actual deep insight, I note this recent post on Andrew Gelman's blog.

Comment author: timtyler 31 August 2009 12:01:23PM *  -2 points [-]

Well, other people have previously taken a crack at the same problem.

If they have resolved it, then I should think that would be helpful - since then you can look at their solution. If not, their efforts to solve the problem might still be enlightening.

So: I think my contribution in this area is probably helpful.

15 minutes was how long it took me to find the cited material in the first place. Not trivial - but not that hard.

No need to beat me up for not knowing the background of your own largely unpublished theory!

...but yes, in my view, advanced decision theory is a bit of a red herring for those interested in machine intelligence. It's like: that is so not the problem. It seems like wondering whether to use butter-icing or marzipan on the top of the cake - when you don't yet have the recipe or the ingredients.

Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 31 August 2009 07:15:48PM 1 point [-]

15 minutes was how long it took me to find the cited material in the first place. Not trivial - but not that hard.

The cited material isn't much different from a lot of other material in the same field.

Comment author: timtyler 31 August 2009 07:56:26PM *  -1 points [-]

So far, "Disposition-Based Decision Theory" (and its apparently-flawed precursor) is the only thing I have seen that apparently claims to address and solve the same problem that is under discussion in this forum:

I suppose there's also a raft of CDT enthusiasts, who explain why two-boxing is actually not a flaw in their system, and that they have no objections to the idea of agents who one-box. In their case, the debate appears to be over terminology: what does the word "rational" actually mean - is it about choosing the best action from the available options? Or does it mean something else?

Are there other attempts at a solution? Your turn for some references, I feel.

Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 31 August 2009 09:34:07PM 1 point [-]

"Paradoxes of Rationality and Cooperation" (the edited volume) will give you a feel for the basics, as will reading Marion Ledwig's thesis paper.