DanArmak comments on How inevitable was modern human civilization - data - Less Wrong

30 Post author: taw 20 August 2009 09:42PM

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Comment author: DanArmak 21 August 2009 08:47:52PM 0 points [-]

Flying is already a very demanding and difficult task - how much larger a brain could their metabolism support?

We don't know that a larger brain is required for greater intelligence (in e.g. birds).

Comment author: Jonathan_Graehl 21 August 2009 11:27:36PM *  0 points [-]

I agree. But it's "easier" to evolve a slightly larger brain with the same architecture, than to discover a new, more efficient architecture.

In general we should expect a larger brain (ours consumes 1/4 of our total energy) to pay for itself in more actual intelligence; if it doesn't (the architecture can't easily scale) then the smallest (still working) brains will win.

For each species of bird, either

1) general scalable intelligence isn't supported by their brain's architecture (so you can't just grow more processing power)

2) birds lack the physical attributes to profit from any more general intelligence than they already have

or

3) it (general intelligence) just hasn't evolved yet

Comment author: DanArmak 22 August 2009 06:06:01AM 0 points [-]

In general we should expect a larger brain (ours consumes 1/4 of our total energy) to pay for itself in more actual intelligence.

I don't think we should generalize from the single data point of recent human evolution. Are we sure larger brains tend to give greater general intelligence in other lineages? Has this been checked? Is the intra-species brain size variation large enough to check this in species where we already run intelligence tests?

The fact that human brains recently became unusually large can be explained by other theories. For example, it seems more likely to me that first there was a (relatively recent) mutation that significantly changed brain architecture, and only after that point did the new brains profit from growing larger. (E.g., chimps would have come before this mutation, and indeed have not experienced runaway brain growth.) On this theory, brain size only benefits the lineage with a very specific neural architecture and isn't a general rule.

There have also been other theories, some of them invoking sexual selection.

if it doesn't (the architecture can't easily scale) then the smallest (still working) brains will win.

Most of the brain does tasks not directly related to general intelligence, e.g., lower-level input processing, managing the digestive system, etc.

Increases in brain size might also improve these functions and be an advantage in their own right. This would further muddy the issue if we charted intelligence vs. brain size, because we don't know enough yet to say which parts of the brain (particularly of a non-human brain) have which general-intelligence functions. Bird brains, for instance, aren't much like mammal brains, they don't even have a neocortex, so we can't just compare growth of brain areas directly. (Not to mention cephalopod brains...)

Finally, brain size directly correlates with head size, and most of the time I expect head size would be more evolutionarily significant. It controls things like eating (size of mouth and throat), defense (size of teeth and jaw), acuteness of the senses (eye size)...

birds lack the physical attributes to profit from any more general intelligence than they already have

Not to nitpick, but the definition of fully general intelligence is that pretty much anyone can benefit from it.

Comment author: tut 23 August 2009 09:37:42AM 0 points [-]

Is there any evidence that fully general intelligence exists in this world?

Comment author: DanArmak 23 August 2009 10:48:35AM -2 points [-]

Depends on the definition used. You could argue that Bayes' Law is fully general intelligence.

Comment author: tut 23 August 2009 11:26:20AM 0 points [-]

Bayes Law is a fact/theorem which is probably useful for anyone who can understand it. But is that what you mean by intelligence? I thought it was about the abilities of an individual.

Comment author: DanArmak 23 August 2009 07:15:59PM -2 points [-]

OK, then, any individual understanding Bayes' Law could be said to have "fully general" intelligence.

Comment author: Vladimir_Nesov 23 August 2009 07:27:56PM -2 points [-]

This is silly.

Comment author: kess3r 23 August 2009 07:49:37PM -2 points [-]

Silly? But is it true or false?

Comment author: Jonathan_Graehl 22 August 2009 03:48:17PM 0 points [-]

Larger brain of the same architecture.

Comment author: DanArmak 23 August 2009 06:19:31AM 0 points [-]

That's what I'm talking about. What reason do we have for thinking that larger brains of the same architecture exhibit more general intelligence (in non human lineages)?

Also, what exactly does it mean for two brains to have the same "architecture" if they differ by a genetic mutation? It's not as if there's a separate gene coding for "brain size" that could mutate on its own.

Comment author: Jonathan_Graehl 23 August 2009 09:17:53AM 0 points [-]

If it doesn't help, and uses more energy, then it won't get kept unless it's an inevitable side effect of something helpful. That was my only basis for "larger (of same type) => more intelligence".

I don't really know anything about this topic. My claim is essentially a tautology that may not have much practical application.

Some trivia (not directly related to my original claim) I found at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_size:

[brain size vs. body size in mammals] follows a power law, with an exponent of about 0.75

the "average" brain of mammals taken as a whole, but each family (cats, rodents, primates, etc) departs from it to some degree, in a way that generally reflects the overall "sophistication" of behavior.

Primates, for a given body size, have brains 5 to 10 times as large as the formula predicts

Comment author: DanArmak 23 August 2009 10:49:30AM 0 points [-]

If it doesn't help, and uses more energy, then it won't get kept unless it's an inevitable side effect of something helpful.

That's true. But something helpful done by the brain isn't necessarily involved with intelligence.