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gwern comments on The Finale of the Ultimate Meta Mega Crossover - Less Wrong
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I have to say: as awesome as this fanfic was, I think if I had seen it before I had ever donated to SIAI and I had recognized half the Reddit & other obscurities, I wouldn't've sent in so much as a cent!
That sounds like something important for me to know about. Why?
(Also, what Reddit?)
The reasoning would go something like this:
Alternate, more fallacious version:
Now, as for Reddit: I fear to reread the fic to get specifics, but I remember thinking at least twice reading through it, 'isn't that a reference to an obscure in-joke or article I've only ever seen on Reddit?' Whether those were truly Reddit refs/Reddit-reading-sourced or not is almost irrelevant.
EDIT: * I hereby dub this a 'sylolgism'. Go forth and plague the people with fallacious proofs written in lolcat.
It doesn't take ridiculous amount of time to consume enough media -- normal amount of entertainment time would do just fine. Over the years, little things accumulate. I've probably consumed 100 kg of cheese in the last 10 years, but that doesn't make me a cheese-swallowing python.
Sure; but Eliezer isn't that old! And don't forget, these aren't the only ones who he consumed, but the ones he consumed, remembered, and chose to put into the fic.
If we (or more realistically, he, since I'm not sure whether any of the LW readers can identify every ref he used) toted up all the refs and got, say, 120, how much could we infer he has consumed? Surely several many times that, possibly an order of magnitude or 2 more.
And some of the works are very extensive (Evangelion TV, 26 eps at 30 minutes a piece = 13 hours + 3 hours of movies; Oh My Goddess, 39 volumes (20 minutes apiece?), 5 OVAs (half an hour), a movie (2 hours), 50 TV episodes (half an hour) = 42.5 hours). And there's only so much waking time.
And then there's the recency of most of these works. If we make some reasonable assumptions about when Eliezer's most mentally productive period would be, mirroring those for mathematics, he's through a decent fraction of it.
You can just read about them instead of actually reading or watching the entire series. I know a bit about Ah My Goddess, but haven't actually watched any of it.
Incidentally, I recently plowed through the entire Eva TV series, watching one DVD a night, on six non-consecutive nights, and just finished watching End of Evangelion now.
As for the sheer quantity of references, I could probably duplicate them myself by looking through my book collection... by the time I finished high school, I had enough paperback novels to fill several bookshelves.
Is it having hobbies that you object to or that he does not devote sufficient effort to constructing a 'serious' public image? I note that the time wasted with the formalities involved in such signalling are more than enough to become well versed in science fiction.
I think my objection, as a past donor, is that: by producing & deliberately posting in a high-profile place something like this fanfic, Eliezer - the founder & public face of SIAI - is damaging the serious public image which is necessary for SIAI to accomplish its goals.
SIAI works in the real world; I don't think it can afford for its people to make contrarian choices to watch anime instead of signal.
I think this is right.
Gwern, I refer you to http://xkcd.com/137/
At the risk of violent downvoting, one of the many reference points that jumped into my mind while reading was 'the closest thing I've experienced to jumping between nested levels of reality is on drugs'.
"Don't let yourself unreflectively fall into a routine" and "don't be emotionally uncomfortable with nonconformity" are of course good advice; "be indifferent to PR when you're trying to do something for which PR actually matters" is bad advice.
How about the middle ground - "If constant PR consideration stops you from expressing yourself all the time, maybe it's time to reconsider your priorities"?
Posting stuff on Facebook that might get you in trouble is the archetype these day I suppose, but I really can't bring myself to care about things like that.
Maybe I just don't have a strong enough terminal value to protect right now, but I find it easier to imagine myself thinking, 50 years hence, "I wish I'd just decided 'to hell with it' and said what I thought" than "I wish I'd shut up, gone with the flow and eased my path."
I'll hit you up in late 2059 and let you know how that went.
That is a reasonable objection. Of course, it is a completely different objection to the one you previously rationalised.
I don't think it is; my first 2 comments were reasoning a potential donor would use, while my comment just above is my actual reasoning as a past donor (thinking about the reasoning of potential donors).
I don't think this is too tricky or abstract a distinction, but then again, if I were just rationalizing my dislike for Eliezer spending his time on fanfics, I suppose the distinction would also make perfect sense to me...
I agree with wedrifid: this is a different complaint. Did you learn something new about EY's media consumption habits from this story that you did not already know from references in his essays? I doubt it. Maybe it is important that it is concentrated, that it is easier to notice than the scattered references. Someone reading his body of work is already committed, or at least has a lot more information to assess.
I suspect that the media consumption is a red herring and the real complaint is about writing fiction or fanfiction. Did you have any reaction to the other works of fiction?
Lest I seem to be judging you (gwern) for expressing disapproval of Eleizer's identity signalling choices I'll note that I have no particular problem with the expression of that preference.
Another reason that a donor could object stems from a core motivation for altruistic donations. Affiliation to high status people and institutions. If the high status figurehead is writing fanfiction then a donor might be expected to resent the perceived devaluation of their investment.
On the other hand, Eleizer's contrarian nature is the reason I am considering donating to SIAI rather than seeking ways to undermine it. I know all too well how status impairs human judgement and thought of amplifying that risk with the creation of a superintelligence. Eleizer's last work of fiction was a damn good metaphor. If I wielded a Sword of Good I would slay the high status courtier but let the contrary Lord of Darkness cast that FAI spell of ultimate power.
I learned nothing about what kind of media EY consumes. I knew perfectly well that he reads much the same kind of SF/Fantasy/manga/anime that I do (as well as fanfiction). What I learned new was inferences about the degree of his consumption. See my other comment about the orders-of-magnitude difference between consumption and recall.
I think you err in inferences about EY's degree of consumption based on his ease of recall. Given his extreme intelligence, we would expect him to have extraordinary recall relative to almost everybody with similar habits of consumption. Reading/viewing just moderately more than your average avid reader/viewer and having an extraordinary memory seems more than sufficient to explain this case.
And I think your criticism is not really valid given that EY is the mad scientist of the organization. It would be more appropriate -- if relevant, which it doesn't seem to be -- leveled at Michael Vassar, the President of SIAI.
Regarding Reddit references, all that comes to mind for me is "Squirrel Girl as memetic badass", which isn't Reddit-specific.
This thread is amusing in current context.