gwern comments on Let them eat cake: Interpersonal Problems vs Tasks - Less Wrong

70 Post author: HughRistik 07 October 2009 04:35PM

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Comment author: komponisto 10 October 2009 04:35:41AM 0 points [-]

Military service is generally understood to be coercive

Really? I suspect a lot of young Americans would view the idea of coerced military service as another one of those bizarre practices from the distant past.

Comment author: gwern 10 October 2009 05:04:55AM 2 points [-]

Which only goes to show that they don't read their own history books about drafts, or newspapers about stop-loss policies and the National Guard deployments.

Comment author: komponisto 10 October 2009 05:54:36AM 0 points [-]

Some may not read history, but it doesn't follow from what I said. They may know very well that the draft existed in the past.

(I've noticed that a lot of people old enough to remember e.g. Vietnam have trouble accepting that we're in a different historical era now; they often speak in a way that suggests they think the draft could easily be brought back, when in fact the political reality is such that that's extremely unlikely.)

National Guard service is voluntary, and stop-loss concerns people already signed up.

Comment author: gwern 10 October 2009 03:46:06PM 2 points [-]

The draft still exists.

As for how difficult it would be to put it back into operation, that's hard to say; consider how many people thought a black man would not be president this side of 2100. The right question is how difficult it would be to get into a war or other national emergency which could make use of the draft; in such situations, the preferences of young people are irrelevant.

As for National Guard and stop-loss: you have a very strange idea of coercion if you think stop-loss isn't it. There may be a clause in their contracts saying something about contracts being extended indefinitely, but that strikes me as like signing a contract to sell yourself into slavery.

Comment author: komponisto 10 October 2009 07:13:57PM *  1 point [-]

you have a very strange idea of coercion if you think stop-loss isn't it

Stop-loss itself is coercion, but it's coercion applied to those already in the military. Citing the (current, contingent) existence of stop-loss policies doesn't support the idea that military service is inherently coerced. You may as well cite the fact that military personnel have to follow orders (also obviously coercion).

Comment author: DanArmak 10 October 2009 08:27:31PM 1 point [-]

You're right, military enrollment is not inherently and always coercive; many countries have volunteer-only armies.

For purposes of scaring people with an analogy for "entitlement" rape, we can use the following scenario: your worst enemy, who looks a little like you when he wears a wig, has signed an 8 year irrevocable combat unit contract in your name. It "only looks like" your signature? Tell that to the military police kicking down your door...

Comment author: CronoDAS 11 October 2009 06:25:21AM -1 points [-]

Wikipedia has more.

[The Armed Forces Enlistment Contract states]: "In the event of war, my enlistment in the Armed Forces continues until six (6) months after the war ends, unless the enlistment is ended sooner by the President of the United States."

But, yeah, it's deceptive at best.

Back during World War 1, the Supreme Court ruled that the Thirteenth Amendment doesn't apply to the military. In the context of ruling about the constitutionality of the draft, they devoted one paragraph to the Thirteenth Amendment issue:

As we are unable to conceive upon what theory the exaction by government from the citizen of the performance of his supreme and noble duty of contributing to the defense of the rights and honor of the nation, as the result of a war declared by the great representative body of the people, can be said to be the imposition of involuntary servitude in violation of the prohibitions of the Thirteenth Amendment, we are constrained to the conclusion that the contention to that effect is refuted by its mere statement.

In other words, they said that they don't want it to apply, so it doesn't.