Mitchell_Porter comments on How to think like a quantum monadologist - Less Wrong

-14 Post author: Mitchell_Porter 15 October 2009 09:37AM

You are viewing a comment permalink. View the original post to see all comments and the full post content.

Comments (266)

You are viewing a single comment's thread. Show more comments above.

Comment author: rhollerith_dot_com 18 October 2009 07:46:32PM *  10 points [-]

Richard, at which step is the brain malfunction: the step where I think I see colors, or the step where I think there are no colors in physics, or the step where I draw the logical conclusion?

Consider a community of intelligent agents whose eyes have the following flaw: there is an area of the retina of the eye where there are no photodetectors, with the result that the visual field experienced by an agent contains a black spot somewhere near the center of the field. The human eye has exactly such a flaw (where the optic nerve originates) but the human brain removes the existence of the flaw from the higher awareness of the individual. In contrast to the human case, suppose our hypothetical intelligent agents remain aware of the flaw (or can become aware of it whenever they choose to do so).

Suppose further that one day one of these agents, named Mitchell, addresses the physicists of the community as follows:

Yo, physicists! Although physics is supposed to be the study of fundamental reality, your account of fundamental reality neglects to account for the black disk that has contrived somehow to remain in front of my eyes for my entire life.

Clearly, your physical model needs to be revised to include the black disk. For example, unless the black disk is massless, momentum is not always conserved like your current physical model says it is. But a massless black disks presents problems, too. Research is needed to incorporate massless black disks into a coherent account of reality -- unless of course you decide instead to remove from your physical model the law of the conservation of momentum.

A physicist named Dick replies,

There is a reductionist explanation for the black disk that does not require a revision of our physical model. Here, let me lay it out for you. My model of reality includes my self. In other words, the model consists an agent (my self) and an environment. (Reality contains agents other than my self, but we will not be needing that fact today.) Moreover, the agent maintains a model of the environment. So, to review, in my model of reality, reality contains an agent which in turn contains a model of its environment. Let us appeal to the computer scientist's notion of state. The agent's model contains quite a bit of state. Part of that state is what we might call a low-level representation of the information coming from the environment through the eyes.

This low-level representation takes the form of a two-dimensional array, which we might call the visual field. Near the center of the two-dimensional representation is a blank area, a black area or what appears to be a representation of a black disk. However, the agent containing the low-level representation is an educated agent. It has been to college. It knows about the part of its retina where there are no photoreceptors. Consequently, the agent's highest-level representation of its environment does not include a black disk that contrives somehow always to remain near the center of where the agent is looking becuase it has properly accounted for other evidence (e.g., knowledge of the anatomy of its eye) that overrides the evidence of the low-level representation of the black disk.

Let me stop here, Mitchell, and ask you to confirm that yes, the account given by the fictional intelligent agent Dick is a satisfactory account of the black disk and is a satisfactory answer to the fictional Mitchell.

Second, let me ask you to confirm, please, that yes, for the fictional Mitchell to ask Dick, "At what stage do the quarks, photons, etc, of your physical model turn into a massless or momentum-conservation-violating black disk?" reveals a confusion between representation of reality and reality -- that is, between map and territory?

Jokes about the parts of a symphony aside

I am a little discouraged by your framing it as a joke. You made an argument about consciousness, then I pointed out that the same argument holds for symphonic music. I sincerely, non-jokingly did not understand what is different about consciousness that made your argument apply there, but not apply to symphonic music.

But anyway, you expanded your argument as follows:

I have my conscious experience of the world, which is some complicated mixture of sensations, diverse conceptual positing of objects and situations, and private intentionality . . . Then, I have my physical model of the world, which might be atoms in space, or amplitudes in configuration space, and I seek to identify the experience above with some subset of the posited physical world. On both sides of the equation we have things in relation to each other, so we need a mapping not just between things but between relations.

So my proposition is that it is extremely problematic to identify the constituting relations of consciousness - the relations between its parts at the level of experience - with spatial relations. The constituting relations of consciousness are something like: subjective spatiality, subjective simultaneity, gestalt unification of sensations into a sensory form, conceptual association of posited properties with sensory gestalts, logical and other conjunctions of things as the compound objects of thoughts

Let me ask you this: suppose I show you a computer program with rich, complex non-spatial relationships between elements of the computer program. Would you consider that evidence of the poverty and the unsatisfactoriness of our current physical model?

If you answer no, please explain what it is about you at the level of physical law that is intrinsically different from a computer program.

Comment author: Mitchell_Porter 19 October 2009 12:31:16PM 0 points [-]

Symphonies: well, they have parts, vocal parts and instrumental parts. The pun obscures matters and I didn't want to go there.

You bring up the physical ontology of computer programs and whether people are different. Computer programs introduce a new slate of complications because they are typically perceived and discussed in a way as full of imputed intentionality as when someone reads a book. As a physical object, a page of text is just ink on paper in a complicated pattern. The meaning is not intrinsic to the physical object. The same thing goes for computer programs. Physically, a given program is a pattern of magnetizations on a disk, a pattern of charge distributions in an integrated circuit, etc. We have computational devices constructed to be finite-state machines of a particular specification, an elaborate array of cultural props such as programming languages which allow us to think of these states and their components as being about anything and everything, and finally we have media-technology peripherals to enhance the illusion by presenting our senses, and not just our intellects, with simulacra.

Now of course the standard cognitive-neuro view of human beings is that, with the ability to move around autonomously thrown into the definition, this is essentially what we are too: finite-state machines with peripherals, all made out of atoms. If our thoughts manage to be "about" something, it's because of what caused those inner states and/or because of how everyone else would interpret them (causal and social theories of intentionality, respectively).

According to the quantum-monadic hypothesis, what makes us different to the computers we have is not carbon versus silicon, it's quantum versus classical computation. Any entity which forms interior entanglements with a high degree of freedom is at least potentially conscious; anything which doesn't, is not. A conscious monad is still a finite-state machine too, when viewed as a black box causally interacting with the world; but (this is the theory, remember) it contains intrinsic intentionality, whereas an entity which reproduces its causality in a way which has many physically separate parts, does not. You could almost say that a complex monad is made of "qualia and intentionality" (sensations and thought, basically), and that you can simulate the causal dispositions of such a complex monad using a multitude of simple ones, but you will not have thereby materialized actual sensations and thought into being.

I realize I'm making still further ex cathedra statements here, when apparently I still haven't persuaded anyone of the plausibility of the previous batch, but though I'm engaging a little bit with the criticism, I am at this point mostly just trying to convey a novel way of thinking. I see that even the mere exposition of the viewpoint is going to require a lot of work, to say nothing of its justification.

Comment author: SilasBarta 19 October 2009 03:01:04PM *  2 points [-]

Symphonies: well, they have parts, vocal parts and instrumental parts. The pun obscures matters and I didn't want to go there.

Pun? No, that's a metaphor (combined with a reductio). A pun is when you exploit an ambiguity that hinges on a phonetic similarity.

More importantly, it's not up to you to decide whether you need to "go there". You used a chain of reasoning about consciousness. Richard Hollerith pointed out that the very same reasoning can apply to symphonies, thereby showing your reasoning to lead to invalid results. So you need to refine the reasoning, not just dismiss it as a pun, which isn't even the right label.

I realize I'm making still further ex cathedra statements here

I don't think it's the ex cathedra bit that bothers anyone here, but the ex pedora [1]. Your'e not even at the point where you can present a coherent, testable (in the broad sense) viewpoint, and you keep finding distinctions that you "should have made" before -- yet you're sure that there's a flaw with the exisitng methods used here. This, despite all the time you've spent on the issue. If correct, you should be able to communicate the idea a lot better than you have been. If the issue's as important as you make it out to be, surely a little more effort on your part is justified when you make top-level posts.

[1] "from the foot-mouth", a term I just made up, which I don't even think is valid Latin. But it's closer to being a pun than the symphony thing!

Comment author: Mitchell_Porter 20 October 2009 05:14:47AM 1 point [-]

Richard Hollerith pointed out that the very same reasoning can apply to symphonies, thereby showing your reasoning to lead to invalid results.

I see now that I didn't want to dodge matters because of the "pun", I just tried to use that as an excuse. I wanted to dodge this question because "symphonic music" is, for the purposes of an ontological discussion, ambiguous in its reference and introduces much unnecessary new complexity however you interpret it.

I made the assertion that conscious experience - what happens in the mind of one individual at one time - is not made up of spatial parts. Richard said, I could say the same of symphonic music, do you think it can't be reduced to physics either. Well, first of all, what do we mean by symphonic music? Do we mean all the physical performances ever made by the symphonies of the world? Do we mean the experience of the listeners who hear those symphonic performances? Do we mean the abstract specification of a symphony, which those concrete performances attempt to follow? These are all very different things ontologically, their analysis into parts is going to be different, and the analogy/disanalogy with consciousness is also going to be different. It's one big distraction, I instinctively tried to dodge it, you pinned me down, so there's what I should have said to Richard to begin with.

you keep finding distinctions that you "should have made" before -- yet you're sure that there's a flaw with the existing methods used here. This, despite all the time you've spent on the issue. If correct, you should be able to communicate the idea a lot better than you have been. If the issue's as important as you make it out to be, surely a little more effort on your part is justified when you make top-level posts.

What can I say ... I have refrained for years from talking about this stuff at any length, because I didn't have it all figured out, and I still don't, and simply pointing out the flaws of physicalist orthodoxy changes nothing. On this occasion I have tried the more affirmative approach of introducing a concrete alternative, and I am being induced to bring out extra details as the discussion proceeds. I did not know in advance where the focus would be.