Psychohistorian comments on Expected utility without the independence axiom - Less Wrong

9 Post author: Stuart_Armstrong 28 October 2009 02:40PM

You are viewing a comment permalink. View the original post to see all comments and the full post content.

Comments (65)

You are viewing a single comment's thread. Show more comments above.

Comment author: SilasBarta 28 October 2009 03:36:29PM *  4 points [-]

Since we rejected independence, we must now consider the lotteries when taken as a whole, rather than just seeing them individually. When considered as a whole, "reasonable" lotteries are more tightly bunched around their total mean than they are individually. Hence the more lotteries we consider, the more we should treat them as if only their mean mattered.

You are absolutely correct, and it pains me because this issue should have been settled a long time ago.

When Eliezer Yudkowsky first brought up the breakdown of independence in humans, way, way back during the discussion of the Allais Paradox, the poster "Gray Area" explained why people aren't being money-pumped, even though they violate independence. He/she came to the same conclusion in the quote above.

Here's what Gray Area said back then:

Finally, the 'money pump' argument fails because you are changing the rules of the game. The original question was, I assume, asking whether you would play the game once, whereas you would presumably iterate the money pump until the pennies turn into millions. The problem, though, is if you asked people to make the original choices a million times, they would, correctly, maximize expectations. Because when you are talking about a million tries, expectations are the appropriate framework. When you are talking about 1 try, they are not. [bold added]

I didn't see anyone even reply to Gray Area anywhere in that series, or anytime since.

So I bring up essentially the same point whenever Eliezer uses the Allais result, always concluding with a zinger like: If getting lottery tickets is being exploited, I don't want to be empowered.

Please, folks, stop equating a hypothetical money pump with the actual scenario.

Comment author: Psychohistorian 28 October 2009 10:56:15PM *  1 point [-]

the poster "Gray Area" explained why people aren't being money-pumped, even though they violate independence.

I actually think that (for some examples) it's actually simpler than that. The Allais paradox assumes that the proposal of the bet itself has no effect on the utility of the proposee. In reality, if I took a 5% chance at $100M, instead of a 100% chance at $4M, there's a 95% chance I'd be kicking myself every time I opened my wallet for the rest of my life. Thus, taking the bet and losing is significantly worse than never having the bet proposed at all. If this is factored in correctly, EY's original formulation of the Allais Paradox is no longer functional: I prefer certainty, because losing when certainty was an option carries lower utility than never having bet.

This is more about how you calculate outcomes than it is about independence directly. If losing when you could have had a guaranteed (or nearly-guaranteed) win carries negative utility, and if you can only play once, it does not seem like it contradicts independence.