MendelSchmiedekamp comments on Money pumping: the axiomatic approach - Less Wrong

12 Post author: Stuart_Armstrong 05 November 2009 11:23AM

You are viewing a comment permalink. View the original post to see all comments and the full post content.

Comments (93)

You are viewing a single comment's thread. Show more comments above.

Comment author: MendelSchmiedekamp 05 November 2009 04:18:39PM *  0 points [-]

I'm very busy at the moment, but the short version is that one of my good candidates for a utility component function, c, has, c(A) < c(B) < c(pA + (1-p)B) for a subset of possible outcomes A and B, and choices of p.

This is only a piece of the puzzle, but if continuity in the von Neumann-Morgenstern sense falls out of it, I'll be surprised. Some other bounds are possible I suspect.

Comment author: Stuart_Armstrong 05 November 2009 05:25:03PM 0 points [-]

c(A) < c(B) < c(pA + (1-p)B) for a subset of possible outcomes A and B, and choices of p.

Independence fails here. We have B > A, yet there is a p such that (pA + (1-p)B) > B = (pB + (1-p)B). This violates independence for C = B.

As this is an existence result ("for a subset of possible A, B and p..."), it doesn't say anything about continuity.

Comment author: MendelSchmiedekamp 05 November 2009 06:27:38PM 0 points [-]

Sorry I left this out. It's a huge simplification, but treat the set of p as a discrete subset set in the standard topology.

Comment author: Stuart_Armstrong 06 November 2009 08:13:18AM 0 points [-]

And that is discontinuous; but you can model it by a narrow spike around the value of p, making it continuous.

Comment author: Stuart_Armstrong 05 November 2009 06:39:38PM 0 points [-]

Hum, this seems to imply that the set of p is a finite set...

Still doesn't change anything about the independence violation, though.

Comment author: MendelSchmiedekamp 06 November 2009 03:18:34PM *  1 point [-]

But does doesn't the money pump result for non-independence rely on continuity? Perhaps I missed something there.

(Of note, this is what happens when I try to pull out a few details which are easy to relate and don't send entirely the wrong intuition - can't vouch for accuracy, but at least it seems we can talk about it.)

Comment author: Stuart_Armstrong 06 November 2009 05:07:15PM *  0 points [-]

Actually, I realised you didn't need continuity at all. See the addendum; if you violate independence, you can be weakly money-pumped even without continuity (though the converse may be false).

Comment author: Technologos 05 November 2009 04:43:58PM 0 points [-]

Perhaps I'm confused, but I thought that the inequality you described simply refers to a utility function with convex preferences (i.e. diminishing returns).

I agree in general that discontinuity does not by itself entail the ability to be money-pumped--this should be trivially true from utility functions over strictly complementary goods.