DanArmak comments on Open Thread: November 2009 - Less Wrong

3 [deleted] 02 November 2009 01:18AM

You are viewing a comment permalink. View the original post to see all comments and the full post content.

Comments (539)

You are viewing a single comment's thread. Show more comments above.

Comment author: DanArmak 05 November 2009 04:43:49PM 2 points [-]

I would contribute nothing to the pool, hire a lawyer privately on the side to advise me, and pass his orders down to the public courtroom lawyer. If I have much more money than the other party, and if the money can strongly enough determine the lawyer's quality and the trial's outcome, then even advice and briefs prepared outside the courtroom by my private lawyer would be worth it.

Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 05 November 2009 04:56:49PM 3 points [-]

Then your lawyer gets arrested.

It sometimes is possible to have laws or guild rules if the prohibited behavior is clear enough that people can't easily fool themselves into thinking they're not violating them. Accepting advice and briefs prepared outside the courtroom is illegal, in this world.

Comment author: DanArmak 06 November 2009 12:10:44AM 1 point [-]

I agree with Alicorn. Even if you pass the law, there's no practical way to stop people from getting private advice secretly, especially in advance of the court date. If you try real hard, private lawyers will go underground (and as the saying goes, only criminals will have lawyers :-) People will pass along illegal samizdat manuals of how to behave in court, half of them actually presenting harmful advice and none of them properly attributed. Congratulations: you have just forced lawyering to become a secret Dark Art.

Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 06 November 2009 01:31:07AM 3 points [-]

Congratulations: you have just forced lawyering to become a secret Dark Art.

And this is not an improvement over the current status quo because...?

Comment author: DanArmak 06 November 2009 06:54:28AM 0 points [-]

Do you think this is an improvement? As described, it looks like it's a repeat of a similar system with similar problems. (And how much of that is because we already know those failings and are best at describing them?)

Comment author: Nick_Tarleton 06 November 2009 01:35:42AM *  0 points [-]

How would you have legal advice outside of a court case (to ensure predictability) handled?

Comment author: Vladimir_Nesov 06 November 2009 12:29:43AM 1 point [-]

You seem to be engaging in motivated skepticism.

Consider how much easier it becomes to get a good professional support for the poor side in Eliezer's setup. There is just too much trouble with "underground" professional representation. A significant portion of expensive lawyers may simply not like the idea of going "underground", because it hurts their self-image and lowers their status within the community of "white-book" lawyers.

Respect trivial inconveniences.

Comment author: DanArmak 06 November 2009 12:40:28AM 2 points [-]

You're right, I was deliberately playing devil's advocate. I should reconsider how likely the failure mode I described is, although I do believe its probability isn't very small.

Comment author: Alicorn 05 November 2009 04:59:16PM *  1 point [-]

Any other advice? What if I want to go to my Ethical Culture Society leader to ask him or her about whether something my in-court lawyer suggests would be right? What if my spouse is a lawyer? What if I'm a lawyer - a really expensive one?

Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 05 November 2009 05:02:37PM 0 points [-]

Okay, suppose a lawyer is not allowed to accept briefs. In the Least Convenient case where you happen to be a really expensive lawyer, how much can actually be accomplished courtroom-wise if you talk for a few hours with a much less expensive lawyer? Would any lawyers care to weigh in?

Comment author: wedrifid 06 November 2009 12:16:12AM 1 point [-]

I'm tempted to suggest 'about the same amount a professional dancer can teach an amateur, and for similar reasons'.

Comment author: Alicorn 05 November 2009 05:04:54PM 1 point [-]

Why would you need to do anything with the inexpensive lawyer? Contribute nothing to the fund - maybe even forfeit your half of whatever the other party contributes - and then represent yourself.

Comment author: MBlume 06 November 2009 12:07:48AM *  4 points [-]

I suspect that the only real solution to the Lawyer Problem is to remove the necessity of the profession -- ie, either simplify the law, or cognitively enhance the people to the point where any person who can not hold the whole of the law in his/her head can be declared legally incompetent.

Comment author: DanArmak 06 November 2009 12:44:34AM 4 points [-]

If possible, that would certainly be a great solution.

The original (our-world) Lawyer Problem goes beyond what we've discussed here: it involves (ex-) lawyers both deliberately making the law and the case law more and more complex, to increase the value of their services.