So, how would you distinguish that, from the case where their response is making the such-and-such mistake?
If my interlocutor is someone who might well have thoughts that don't fit into my schemas, I might be suspicious enough of my impression that they were making one of my standard cached example-mistakes that I'd:
Make a serious effort at original seeing, and make sure my model of the such-and-such mistake is really the best way to organically understand the situation in front of me; and then
Describe my schema for the such-and-such mistake (in general), and see if the person agrees that such-and-such is a mistake; and then
Describe the instance of the such-and-such mistake that the person seems to be making, and ask if they agree or if there's a kind of reasoning going into their claim that doesn't fit into my schema.
Or maybe this is just the pain-in-the-neck method one should use if one's original communication attempt stalls somewhere. Truth be told, I'm at this point rather confused about which aspects of meta-ethics under dispute, and I can't easily scan back through the conversation to find the quotes of yours that made me think you misunderstood because our conversation has overflowed LW's conversation-display settings. And you've made some good points, and I'm convinced I misunderstood you in at least some cases. I'm going to bow out of this conversation for now and wait to discuss values and their origins properly, in response to your own post. (Or if you'd rather, I'd love to discuss by email; I'm annasalamon at gmail.)
Yes, the comment system here is really not suited to the kind of conversation I've been trying to have... not that I'm sure what system would work for it. ;-)
As far as meta-ethics goes, the short summary is:
"Avoiding badness" and "seeking goodness" are not interchangeable when you experience them concretely on human hardware,
It is therefore a reasoning error to treat them as if they were interchangeable in your abstract moral calculations (as they will not work the same way in practice),
Due to the specific nature of the human ha
To paraphrase the Black Belt Bayesian: Behind every exciting, dramatic failure, there is a more important story about a larger and less dramatic failure that made the first failure possible.
If every trace of religion was magically eliminated from the world tomorrow, then—however much improved the lives of many people would be—we would not even have come close to solving the larger failures of sanity that made religion possible in the first place.
We have good cause to spend some of our efforts on trying to eliminate religion directly, because it is a direct problem. But religion also serves the function of an asphyxiated canary in a coal mine—religion is a sign, a symptom, of larger problems that don't go away just because someone loses their religion.
Consider this thought experiment—what could you teach people that is not directly about religion, which is true and useful as a general method of rationality, which would cause them to lose their religions? In fact—imagine that we're going to go and survey all your students five years later, and see how many of them have lost their religions compared to a control group; if you make the slightest move at fighting religion directly, you will invalidate the experiment. You may not make a single mention of religion or any religious belief in your classroom, you may not even hint at it in any obvious way. All your examples must center about real-world cases that have nothing to do with religion.
If you can't fight religion directly, what do you teach that raises the general waterline of sanity to the point that religion goes underwater?
Here are some such topics I've already covered—not avoiding all mention of religion, but it could be done:
But to look at it another way—
Suppose we have a scientist who's still religious, either full-blown scriptural-religion, or in the sense of tossing around vague casual endorsements of "spirituality".
We now know this person is not applying any technical, explicit understanding of...
When you consider it—these are all rather basic matters of study, as such things go. A quick introduction to all of them (well, except naturalistic metaethics) would be... a four-credit undergraduate course with no prerequisites?
But there are Nobel laureates who haven't taken that course! Richard Smalley if you're looking for a cheap shot, or Robert Aumann if you're looking for a scary shot.
And they can't be isolated exceptions. If all of their professional compatriots had taken that course, then Smalley or Aumann would either have been corrected (as their colleagues kindly took them aside and explained the bare fundamentals) or else regarded with too much pity and concern to win a Nobel Prize. Could you—realistically speaking, regardless of fairness—win a Nobel while advocating the existence of Santa Claus?
That's what the dead canary, religion, is telling us: that the general sanity waterline is currently really ridiculously low. Even in the highest halls of science.
If we throw out that dead and rotting canary, then our mine may stink a bit less, but the sanity waterline may not rise much higher.
This is not to criticize the neo-atheist movement. The harm done by religion is clear and present danger, or rather, current and ongoing disaster. Fighting religion's directly harmful effects takes precedence over its use as a canary or experimental indicator. But even if Dawkins, and Dennett, and Harris, and Hitchens should somehow win utterly and absolutely to the last corner of the human sphere, the real work of rationalists will be only just beginning.