AnnaSalamon comments on Moore's Paradox - Less Wrong

47 Post author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 08 March 2009 02:27AM

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Comment author: kurige 08 March 2009 08:45:37AM *  11 points [-]

If you're reading this, Kurige, you should very quickly say the above out loud, so you can notice that it seems at least slightly harder to swallow - notice the subjective difference - before you go to the trouble of rerationalizing.

There seems to be some confusion here concerning authority. I have the authority to say "I like the color green." It would not make sense for me to say "I believe I like the color green" because I have first-hand knowledge concerning my own likes and dislikes and I'm sufficiently confident in my own mental capacities to determine whether or not I'm deceiving myself concerning so simple a matter as my favorite color.

I do not have the authority to say, "Jane likes the color green." I may know Jane quite well, and the probability of my statement being accurate may be quite high, but my saying it is so does not make it so.

I chose to believe in the existance of God - deliberately and conciously. This decision, however, has absolutely zero effect on the actual existance of God.

Critical realism shows us that the world and our perception of the world are two different things. Ideally any rational thinker should have a close correlation between their perception of the world and reality, but outside of first-hand knowledge they are never equivalent.

You are correct - it is harder for me to say "God exists" than it is for me to say "I believe God exists" for the same reason it is harder for a scientist to say "the higgs-boson exists" than it is to say "according to our model, the higgs-boson should exist."

The scientist has evidence that such a particle exists, and may strongly believe in it's existence, but he does not have the authority to say definitively that it exists. It may exists, or not exist, independent of any such belief.

Comment author: AnnaSalamon 08 March 2009 09:37:27AM *  15 points [-]

Does anyone have a good model of what people in fact do, when they talk about "choosing" a particular belief? At least two possibilities come to mind:

(1) Choosing to act and speak in accordance with a particular belief.

(2) Choosing to "lie" to other parts of one's mind -- to act and speak in accordance with a particular belief internally, so that one's emotional centers, etc., get at least some of their inputs "as though" one held that belief.

Is "choosing to trust someone" any more compatible with lack of self-deception than "choosing" a particular belief?

How about "choosing to have such-and-such a preference/value", or "choosing to regard such-and-such a part of myself as 'the real me, who I should align with'"?

Also, is there a line between self-deception and playing useful tricks on the less rational parts of oneself? An example of a useful trick that doesn't bother me is visualizing ice cream as full of worms, or otherwise disgusting, if I don't want to want to eat it. "Chosen beliefs" do bother me in a way the ice cream trick doesn't -- but my best guess is that the difference is just how intelligent/reason-able a portion of oneself one is lying to.

Comment author: SilasBarta 08 March 2009 08:08:11PM 4 points [-]

I don't think there's one model that covers 1) and 2) like you're saying. I think two very different mental processes are going on, and we only use the term "belief" for both of them because we've committed the <a href="http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/02/compress-fallac.html">fallacy of compression</a>.

That is, "I believe (in) X" can mean either

1) My mental model of reality includes X.

or

2) I affiliate with a group that centers around professing X [so I've got a gang watching out for me and if you're part of it we have a basis for cooperating].

So, I don't think there's one answer for your question, because you're describing two different processes, with different methods and goals. Choosing beliefs type 1) is the process of seeking actual truth, while type 2) is the process of gaining power through group affiliation.

Or maybe Robin_Hanson's cynicism is rubbing off on me.