AdeleneDawner comments on Less Wrong Q&A with Eliezer Yudkowsky: Ask Your Questions - Less Wrong

16 Post author: MichaelGR 11 November 2009 03:00AM

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Comment author: AdeleneDawner 11 November 2009 08:48:13PM 5 points [-]

The purpose was to test the waters for another story he was developing; there probably wasn't an in-story purpose to it beyond the obvious one of making it clear that the younger people had a very different worldview than the one we have now. He's been unwilling to give more detail because the reaction to the concept's insertion in that story was too negative to allow him to safely (without reputational consequence, I assume) share the apparently much more questionable other story, or, seemingly, any details about it.

I did upvote your question, by the way. I want to hear more about that other story.

Comment author: SilasBarta 11 November 2009 09:44:14PM 3 points [-]

He's been unwilling to give more detail because the reaction to the concept's insertion in that story was too negative to allow him to safely (without reputational consequence, I assume) share the apparently much more questionable other story, or, seemingly, any details about it.

I don't see it doing much good to his reputation to stay silent either, given the inflammatory nature of the remark. Sure, people will be able to quote that part to trash Eliezer, but that's a lot worse than if someone could link a reasonable clarification in his defense.

Yes, I voted Alicorn's question up. I want to know too.

Comment author: AdeleneDawner 11 November 2009 09:56:47PM 4 points [-]

Actually, there's a very good clarification of his views on rape in the context of our current society later in that same comment thread that could be linked to. It didn't seem to be relevant to this conversation, though.

Comment author: SilasBarta 12 November 2009 03:46:58AM -1 points [-]

That's certainly an explanation. "Very good" and "clarifying" are judgment calls here...

Comment author: AdeleneDawner 12 November 2009 04:12:36AM 1 point [-]

<non-sarcastic> <non-rhetorical> How could it be better? What parts still need clarifying?

Comment author: SilasBarta 12 November 2009 07:11:28PM *  1 point [-]

Okay, after reading the thread and more of Eliezer's comments on the issue, it makes more sense. If I understand it correctly, in the story world, women normally initiate sex, and so men would view female-initiated sex as the norm and -- understandably -- not see what's wrong with non-consensual sex, since they wouldn't even think of the possibility of male-initiated sex. Akon, then, is speaking from the perspective of someone who wouldn't understand why men would have a problem with sex being forced on them, and not considering rape of women as a possibility at all.

Is that about right?

ETA: I still can't make sense of all the business about redrawing of boundaries of consent.

ETA2: I also can't see how human nature could change so that women normally initate sex, AND men continue to have the same permissive attitude toward sex being forced upon them. It seems that the severity of being raped is part and parcel of being the gender that's choosier about who they have sex with.

Comment author: AdeleneDawner 13 November 2009 01:48:00AM 2 points [-]

Regarding the first part, I don't think we were given enough information, either in the story or in the explanation, to determine how exactly the 3WC society differs from ours in that respect - and the point wasn't how it's different so much as that it's different, so I don't consider that a problem. I could be wrong, though, about having enough information - I'm apparently wired especially oddly in ways that are relevant to understanding this aspect of the story, so there's a reasonable chance that I'm personally missing one or more pieces of information that Eliezer assumed that the readers would be bringing to the story to make sense of it.

Regarding 'boundaries of consent', I'm working on an explanation of how I understood Eliezer's explanation. This is a tricky area, though, and my explanation necessarily involves some personal information that I want to present carefully, so it may be another few hours. (I've been out for the last four, or it would have been posted already.)

Comment author: Blueberry 13 November 2009 02:15:10AM 5 points [-]

My understanding was that any society has things that are considered consented to by default, and things that need explicit permission. For instance, among the upper class in England in the last century, it was considered improper to start a conversation with someone unless you had been formally introduced. In modern-day America, it's appropriate to start a conversation with someone you see in public, or tap someone on the shoulder, but not to grope their sexual organs, for instance.

I think this is what EY meant by "boundaries of consent": for instance, imagine a society where initiating sex was the equivalent of asking the time. You could decline to answer, but it would seem odd.

Even so, there's a difference between changing the default for consent, and actually allowing non-consensual behavior. For instance, if someone specifically tells me not to tap her shoulder (say she's an Orthodox Jew) it would then not be acceptable for me to do so, and in fact would legally be assault. But if a young child doesn't want to leave a toy store, it's acceptable for his parent to forcibly remove him.

So there's actually two different ideas: changing the boundaries of what's acceptable, and changing the rules for when people are allowed to proceed in the face of an explicit "no".

Comment author: LauraABJ 13 November 2009 03:13:47AM 0 points [-]

It's also possible that people in that society have a fetish about being taken regardless of anything they do to try and stop it... Like maybe it's one of the only aspects of their lives they don't have any control over, and they like it that way. Of course, I think your explanation is more likely, but either could work.

Comment author: AdeleneDawner 13 November 2009 02:52:50AM 0 points [-]

I'm still working on my explanation, but I'm going to wait and see if this comment does the job before I post it.

Comment author: SilasBarta 13 November 2009 03:15:51AM *  -1 points [-]

It seems you're still about as confused as I am. Why do you think the linked comment clarified anything?

Comment author: AdeleneDawner 13 November 2009 03:56:00AM 5 points [-]

I'm not confused at Eliezer's linked comments; I'm confused at your confusion. I think the linked comments clarified things because I learned relevant information from them, the following points in particular:

  1. The rape comment was not intended to be a plot point, or even major worldbuilding, for 3WC. The fact that we don't have enough in-story context to understand the remark may have been purposeful (though the purpose was not 3WC-related if so), and whether it was purposeful or not, 3WC is intended to be able to work without such an explanation.

  2. Eliezer believes that he understands the psychology behind rape well enough to construct a plausible alternative way for a society to handle the issue. He attempted to support the assertion that he does by explaining how our society handles the issue. I found his explanation coherent and useful - it actually helped solve a related problem I'd been working on - so I believe that he does understand it. I understand that you didn't find his explanation coherent and/or useful, but I don't know why, so I don't know if it's an issue of you not having some piece of information that Eliezer and I have and take for granted, or you noticing a problem with the explanation that Eliezer and I both missed, or perhaps some other issue. My method of solving this kind of problem is to give more information, which generally either solves the problem directly or leads the other person to be able to pinpoint the problem they've found in my (or in this case, Eliezer's) logic, but on such a touchy subject I'm choosing to do that carefully.

Comment author: AdeleneDawner 13 November 2009 07:08:13AM 26 points [-]

Here's my attempt at explaining Eliezer's explanation. It's based heavily on my experiences as someone who's apparently quite atypical in a relevant way. This may require a few rounds of back-and-forth to be useful - I have more information about the common kind of experience (which I assume you share) than you have about mine, but I don't know if I have enough information about it to pinpoint all the interesting differences. Note that this information is on the border of what I'm comfortable sharing in a public area, and may be outside some peoples' comfort zones even to read about: If anyone reading is easily squicked by sexuality talk, they may want to leave the thread now.

I'm asexual. I've had sex, and experienced orgasms (anhedonically, though I'm not anhedonic in general), but I have little to no interest in either. However, I don't object to sex on principle - it's about as emotionally relevant as any other social interaction, which can range from very welcome to very unwelcome depending on the circumstances and the individual(s) with whom I'm socializing*. Sex tends to fall on the 'less welcome' end of that scale because of how other people react to it - I'm aware that others get emotionally entangled by it, and that's annoying to deal with, and potentially painful for them, when I don't react the same way - but if that weren't an issue, 'let's have sex' would get about the same range of reactions from me as 'let's go to the movies' - generally in the range of 'sure, why not?' to 'nope, sorry, what I'm doing now is more interesting', or 'no, thanks' if I'm being asked by someone I prefer not to spend time with.

Now, I don't generally talk about this next bit at all, because it tends to freak people out (even though I'm female and fairly pacifistic and strongly support peoples' right to choose what to do with their bodies in general, and my cluelessness on the matter is unlikely to ever have any effect on anything), but until recently - until I read that explanation by Eliezer, actually - it made no sense to me why someone would consider being raped more traumatic than being kidnapped and forced to watch a really crappy movie with a painfully loud audio track. (Disregarding any injuries, STDs, loss of social status, and chance of pregnancy, of course.) Yeah, being forced to do something against your will is bad, but rape seems to be pretty universally considered one of the worst things that can happen to someone short of being murdered. People even consider rape that bad when the raped person was unconscious and didn't actually experience it!

According to Eliezer - and this makes sense of years' worth of data I gathered while trying to figure this out on my own - this seemingly irrational reaction is because people in our society tend to have what he calls 'sexual selves'. As you may have picked up from the above text, I don't appear to have a 'sexual self' at all, so I'm rather fuzzy on this part, but what he seems to be describing is the special category that people put 'how I am about sex' information into, and most people consider the existence and contents of that category to be an incredibly important part of their selves**. The movie metaphor could be extended to show some parallels in this way, but in the interests of showing a plausible emotional response that's at least close to the same ballpark of intensity, I'll switch to a food metaphor: Vegans, in particular, have a reputation for considering their veganism a fundamental part of their selves, and would theoretically be likely to consider their 'food selves' to have been violated if they discovered that someone had hidden an animal product in something that they ate - even if the animal product would have been discarded otherwise, resulting in no difference in the amount of harm done to any animal. (I know exactly one vegan, and he's one of the least mentally stable people I know in general, so this isn't strong evidence, but the situation I described is the only one other than complete mental breakdown in which I'd predict that that otherwise strict pacifist might become violent.) Even omnivores tend to have a 'food self' in our society - I know few people who wouldn't be disconcerted to discover that they'd eaten rat meat, or insects, or human flesh.***

The rules that we set for ourselves, that define our 'food selves', 'sexual selves', 'movie-watching selves', etc., are what Eliezer was talking about when he mentioned 'boundaries of consent' (which is a specific example of one of those rules). They describe not just what we consider acceptable or unacceptable to do or have done to us, but more fundamentally what we consider related to a specific aspect of our selves. For example, while a google search informs me that this may not be an accurate piece of trivia, I've never heard anyone claim that it's implausible that people in Victorian England considered ankles sexual, even though we don't now. Another example that I vaguely remember reading about, in a different area, is that some cultures considered food that'd been handled by a menstruating woman to be 'impure' and unfit to eat - again, something we don't care about. Sometimes, these rules serve a particular purpose - I've heard the theory that the Kosher prohibition on eating pork was perhaps started because pork was noticed as a disease vector, for example - but the problems that are solved by those rules can sometimes be solved in other ways (in the given example, better meat-processing and cooking technology, I assume), making the rule superfluous and subject to change as the society evolves. It's obvious from my own personal situation that it's also possible - though Eliezer never claimed that this was the case for 3WC - for certain 'selves' that our society considers universal not to develop at all. (Possibly interesting example for this group: Spiritual/religious self.)

Eliezer didn't share with us the details of how the 3WC society solved the relevant underlying problems and allowed the boundaries of sexuality and consent to move so dramatically, but he did indicate that he's aware that those boundaries exist and currently solve certain problems, and that he needed to consider those issues in order to create a plausible alternative way for a society to approach the issue. I don't see any reason to believe that he didn't actually do so.

* I am, notably, less welcoming of being touched in general than most people, but this is not especially true of sex.
** I find this bizarre.
*** I have a toothache. The prescription pain meds I took just kicked in. If the rest of this post is less insightful than the earlier part, or I fail to tie them together properly, it's because I'm slightly out of my head. This may be an ongoing problem until Tuesday or Wednesday.
Comment author: DanArmak 14 November 2009 12:42:40AM 0 points [-]

It seems that the severity of being raped is part and parcel of being the gender that's choosier about who they have sex with.

Evolutionarily, it would seem that the severity of women being raped is due to the possibility of involuntary impregnation. Do we have good data on truly inborn gender differences on the severity of rape, without cultural interference?