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Eliezer_Yudkowsky comments on Less Wrong Q&A with Eliezer Yudkowsky: Ask Your Questions - Less Wrong
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...and I've held and stated this same position pretty much from the beginning, no? E.g. http://lesswrong.com/lw/gr/the_modesty_argument/
I was under the impression that my verbal analysis matched and cleverly excused my concrete behavior.
Well (and I'm pretty sure this matches what I've been saying to you over the last few years) just because two ideal Bayesians would do something naturally, doesn't mean you can singlehandedly come closer to Bayesianism by imitating the surface behavior of agreement. I'm not sure that doing elaborate analyses to excuse your disagreement helps much either. http://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Occam%27s_Imaginary_Razor
I'd spend much more time worrying about the implications of Aumann agreement, if I thought the other party actually knew my arguments, took my arguments very seriously, took the Aumann problem seriously with respect to me in particular, and in general had a sense of immense gravitas about the possible consequences of abusing their power to make me update. This begins to approach the conditions for actually doing what ideal Bayesians do. Michael Vassar and I have practiced Aumann agreement a bit; I've never literally done the probability exchange-and-update thing with anyone else. (Edit: Actually on recollection I played this game a couple of times at a Less Wrong meetup.)
No such condition is remotely approached by disagreeing with the AAAI panel, so I don't think I could, in real life, improve my epistemic position by pretending that they were ideal Bayesians who were fully informed about my reasons and yet disagreed with me anyway (in which case I ought to just update to match their estimates, rather than coming up with elaborate excuses to disagree with them!)
Well I disagree with you strongly that there is no point in considering the views of others if you are not sure they know the details of your arguments, or of the disagreement literature, or that those others are "rational." Guess I should elaborate my view in a separate post.
There's certainly always a point in considering specific arguments. But to be nervous merely that someone else has a different view, one ought, generally speaking, to suspect (a) that they know something you do not or at least (b) that you know no more than them (or far more rarely (c) that you are in a situation of mutual Aumann awareness and equal mutual respect for one another's meta-rationality). As far as I'm concerned, these are eminent scientists from outside the field that I work in, and I have no evidence that they did anything more than snap judgment of my own subject material. It's not that I have specific reason to distrust these people - the main name I recognize is Horvitz and a fine name it is. But the prior probabilities are not good here.
I don't actually spend time obsessing about that sort of thing except when you're asking me those sorts of questions - putting so much energy into self-justification and excuses would just slow me down if Horvitz showed up tomorrow with an argument I hadn't considered.
I'll say again: I think there's much to be said for the Traditional Rationalist ideal of - once you're at least inside a science and have enough expertise to evaluate the arguments - paying attention only when people lay out their arguments on the table, rather than trying to guess authority (or arguing over who's most meta-rational). That's not saying "there's no point in considering the views of others". It's focusing your energy on the object level, where your thought time is most likely to be productive.
Is it that awful to say: "Show me your reasons"? Think of the prior probabilities!
You admit you have not done much to make it easy to show them your reasons. You have not written up your key arguments in a compact form using standard style and terminology and submitted it to standard journals. You also admit you have not contacted any of them to ask them for their reasons; Horvitz would have have to "show up" for you to listen to him. This looks a lot like a status pissing contest; the obvious interpretation: Since you think you are better than them, you won't ask them for their reasons, and you won't make it easy for them to understand your reasons, as that would admit they are higher status. They will instead have to acknowledge your higher status by coming to you and doing things your way. And of course they won't since by ordinary standard they have higher status. So you ensure there will be no conversation, and with no conversation you can invoke your "traditional" (non-Bayesian) rationality standard to declare you have no need to consider their opinions.
You're being slightly silly. I simply don't expect them to pay any attention to me one way or another. As it stands, if e.g. Horvitz showed up and asked questions, I'd immediately direct him to http://singinst.org/AIRisk.pdf (the chapter I did for Bostrom), and then take out whatever time was needed to collect the OB/LW posts in our discussion into a sequence with summaries. Since I don't expect senior traditional-AI-folk to pay me any such attention short of spending a HUGE amount of effort to get it and probably not even then, I haven't, well, expended a huge amount of effort to get it.
FYI, I've talked with Peter Norvig a bit. He was mostly interested in the CEV / FAI-spec part of the problem - I don't think we discussed hard takeoffs much per se. I certainly wouldn't have brushed him off if he'd started asking!
"and then take out whatever time was needed to collect the OB/LW posts in our discussion into a sequence with summaries."
Why? No one in the academic community would spend that much time reading all that blog material for answers that would be best given in a concise form in a published academic paper. So why not spend the time? Unless you think you are that much of an expert in the field as to not need the academic community. If that be the case where are your publications and where are your credentials, where is the proof of this expertise (expert being a term that is applied based on actual knowledge and accomplishments)?
"Since I don't expect senior traditional-AI-folk to pay me any such attention short of spending a HUGE amount of effort to get it and probably not even then, I haven't, well, expended a huge amount of effort to get it."
Why? If you expect to make FAI you will undoubtedly need people in the academic communities' help; unless you plan to do this whole project by yourself or with purely amateur help. I think you would admit that in its current form SIAI has a 0 probability of creating FAI first. That being said your best hope is to convince others that the cause is worthwhile and if that be the case you are looking at the professional and academic AI community.
I am sorry I prefer to be blunt.. that way there is no mistaking meanings...
No.
That 'probably not even then' part is significant.
Now that is an interesting question. To what extent would Eliezer say that conclusion followed? Certainly less than the implied '1' and probably more than '0' too.
"Since I don't expect senior traditional-AI-folk to pay me any such attention short of spending a HUGE amount of effort to get it and probably not even then, I haven't, well, expended a huge amount of effort to get it.
Why? If you expect to make FAI you will undoubtedly need people in the academic communities' help; unless you plan to do this whole project by yourself or with purely amateur help. ..."
"That 'probably not even then' part is significant."
My implication was that the idea that he can create FAI completely outside the academic or professional world is ridiculous when you're speaking from an organization like SIAI which does not have the people or money to get the job done. In fact SIAI doesn't have enough money to pay for the computing hardware to make human level AI.
"Now that is an interesting question. To what extent would Eliezer say that conclusion followed? Certainly less than the implied '1' and probably more than '0' too."
If he doesn't agree with it now, I am sure he will when he runs into the problem of not having the money to build his AI or not having enough time in the day to solve the problems that will be associated with constructing the AI. Not even mentioning the fact that when you close yourself to outside influence that much you often end up with ideas that are riddled with problems, that if someone on the outside had looked at the idea they would have pointed the problems out.
If you have never taken an idea from idea to product this can be hard to understand.
And so the utter difference of working assumptions is revealed.
Back of a napkin math:
10^4 neurons per supercomputer
10^11 neurons per brain
10^7 supercomputers per brain
1.3*10^6 dollars per supercomputer
1.3*10^13 dollars per brain
Edit: Disclaimer: Edit: NOT!
I have. I've also failed to take other ideas to products and so agree with that part of your position, just not the argument as it relates to context.
If there is a status pissing contest, they started it! ;-)
"On the latter, some panelists believe that the AAAI study was held amidst a perception of urgency by non-experts (e.g., a book and a forthcoming movie titled “The Singularity is Near”), and focus of attention, expectation, and concern growing among the general population."
Agree with them that there is much scaremongering going on in the field - but disagree with them about there not being much chance of an intelligence explosion.
I wondered why these folk got so much press. My guess is that the media probably thought the "AAAI Presidential Panel on Long-Term AI Futures" had something to do with the a report commisioned indirectly for the country's president. In fact it just refers to the president of their organisation. A media-savvy move - though it probably represents deliberately misleading information.
Almost surely world class academic AI experts do "know something you do not" about the future possibilities of AI. To declare that topic to be your field and them to be "outside" it seems hubris of the first order.
This conversation seems to be following what appears to me to be a trend in Robin and Eliezer's (observable by me) disagreements. This is one reason I would fascinated if Eliezer did cover Robin's initial question, informed somewhat by Eliezer's interpretation.
I recall Eliezer mentioning in a tangential comment that he disagreed with Robin not just on the particular conclusion but more foundationally on how much weight should be given to certain types of evidence or argument. (Excuse my paraphrase from hazy memory, my googling failed me.) This is a difference that extends far beyond just R & E and Eliezer has hinted at insights that intrigue me.
Does Daphne Koller know more than I do about the future possibilities of object-oriented Bayes Nets? Almost certainly. And, um... there are various complicated ways I could put this... but, well, so what?
(No disrespect intended to Koller, and OOBN/probabilistic relational models/lifted Bayes/etcetera is on my short-list of things to study next.)
How can you be so confident that you know so much about this topic that no world class AI expert could possibly know something relevant that you do not? Surely they considered the fact that people like you think you know a lot about this topic, and they nevertheless thought it reasonable to form a disagreeing opinion based on the attention they had given it. You want to dismiss their judgment as "snap" because they did not spend many hours considering your arguments, but they clearly disagree with that assessment of how much consideration your arguments deserve. Academic authorities are not always or even usually wrong when they disagree with less authoritative contrarians, even when such authorities do not review contrarian arguments in as much detail as contrarians think best. You want to dismiss the rationality of disagreement literature as irrelevant because you don't think those you disagree with are rational, but they probably don't think you are rational either, and you are probably both right. But the same essential logic also says that irrational people should take seriously the fact that other irrational people disagree with them.
You changed what I said into a bizarre absolute. I am assuming no such thing. I am just assuming that, by default, world class experts on various topics in narrow AI, produce their beliefs about the Singularity by snap judgment rather than detailed modular analysis. This is a prior and hence an unstable probability - as soon as I see contrary evidence, as soon as I see the actual analysis, it gets revoked.
They have no such disagreement. They have no idea I exist. On the rare occasion when I encounter such a person who is physically aware of my existence, we often manage to have interesting though brief conversations despite their having read none of my stuff.
Science only works when you use it; scientific authority derives from science. If you've got Lord Kelvin running around saying that you can't have flying machines because it's ridiculous, the problem isn't that he's an Authority, the problem is that he's running on naked snap intuitive judgments of absurdity and the Wright Brothers are using actual math. The asymmetry in this case is not that pronounced but, even so, the default unstable prior is to assume that experts in narrow AI algorithms are not doing anything more complicated than this to produce their judgments about the probability of intelligence explosion - both the ones with negative affect who say "Never, you religious fear-monger!" and the ones with positive affect who say "Yes! Soon! And they shall do no wrong!" As soon as I see actual analysis, then we can talk about the actual analysis!
Added: In this field, what happens by default is that people talk complete nonsense. I spent my first years talking complete nonsense. In a situation like that, everyone has to show their work! Or at least show that they did some work! No exceptions!
This conversation is probably reaching diminishing returns, so let me sum up. I propose that it would be instructive to you and many others if you would discuss what your dispute looks like from an outside view - what uninformed neutral but intelligent and rational observers should conclude about this topic from the features of this dispute they can observe from the outside. Such features include the various credentials of each party, and the effort he or she has spent on the topic and on engaging the other parties. If you think that a reasonable outsider viewer would have far less confidence in your conclusions than you do, then you must think that you possess hidden info, such as that your arguments are in fact far more persuasive than one could reasonably expect knowing only the outside features of the situation. Then you might ask why the usual sorts of clues that tend to leak out about argument persuasiveness have failed to do so in this case.
Robin, why do most academic experts (e.g. in biology) disagree with you (and Eliezer) about cryonics? Perhaps a few have detailed theories on why it's hopeless, or simply have higher priorities than maximizing their expected survival time; but mostly it seems they've simply never given it much consideration, either because they're entirely unaware of it or assume it's some kind of sci-fi cult practice, and they don't take cult practices seriously as a rule. But clearly people in this situation can be wrong, as you yourself believe in this instance.
Similarly, I think most of the apparent "disagreement" about the Singularity is nothing more than unawareness of Yudkowsky and his arguments. As far as I can tell, academics who come into contact with him tend to take him seriously, and their disagreements are limited to matters of detail, such as how fast AI is approaching (decades vs. centuries) and the exact form it will take (uploads/enhancement vs. de novo). They mainly agree that SIAI's work is worth doing by somebody. Examples include yourself, Scott Aaronson, and David Chalmers.
Cryonics is also a good case to analyze what an outsider should think, given what they can see. But of course "they laughed at Galileo too" is hardly a strong argument for contrarian views. Yes sometimes contrarians are right - the key question is how outside observers, or self-doubting insiders, can tell when contrarians are right.
Re: "They have no idea I exist."
Are you sure? You may be underestimating your own fame in this instance.
Say that "Yudkowsky has no real clue" and that those "AI academics are right"? Just another crackpot among many "well educated", no big thing. Not worth to mention, almost.
Say, that this crackpot is of the Edisonian kind! In that case it is something well worth to mention.
Important enough to at least discuss with him ON THE TOPICS, and not on some meta level. Meta level discussion is sometimes (as here IMHO), just a waste of time.
I'm not sure what you mean by your first few sentences. But I disagree with your last two. It is good for me to see this debate.