byrnema comments on The 9/11 Meta-Truther Conspiracy Theory - Less Wrong

43 Post author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 22 December 2009 06:59PM

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Comment author: byrnema 24 December 2009 05:13:27AM *  2 points [-]

I'm not a structural engineer but IMHO the collapse of WTC7 as portrayed in the video cannot be explained by the failure of one column.

I'm not a structural engineer either but I can guess why intuition built from the breakage of objects on a scale of several feet, as we more typically encounter, cannot apply to the demolition of a skyscraper.

  • First, the entire column of the skyscraper should have a lot of inertia -- why would it tip horizontally in one direction or another without a significant continued force to do so?

  • You're probably underestimating the cohesion of the floors, one to another. Maybe they're not like layers of cake balanced on toothpicks. Just a few internal structures connecting the floors (like concrete staircases?) make a vertical crumbling fall seem much more reasonable.

  • An impact that is strong enough to break a hole in an exterior wall doesn't just affect that wall, presumably the whole building would be agitated, shaking and wobbling at various sonic and supersonic frequencies. (Thunder during a storm is enough to cause my house to resonate and rattle the mirrors on my wall.)

I'm not saying that I would have predicted that the building would fall vertically rather than tip over. I'm just saying that I would expect that the fall of an enormous building with lots of external and internal structure to be more complex than my intuition could accommodate.

If I was worried about there being a conspiracy, and it was because the fall of this building was nagging at me, what I would do -- because I know from experience this is what I do when I worry -- is I would go to youtube and google "building collapse" and see if buildings typically fall in ways that I expect, and if there's a lot of variation, etc. I would see if after watching a few buildings collapse at that scale, if my brain could extract enough information to really feel comfortable one way or another about the likelihood of identifying a 'false' collapse..

(Seeing what structural engineers have to say about it is not the first thing I would do, because I expect demolition models are like climate models -- you have enough free parameters and undetermined assumptions to get out anything.)

Comment author: byrnema 24 December 2009 05:27:21AM *  0 points [-]

I'm not deleting this previous comment, but someone over my shoulder tells me they just read about this in Physics for Future Presidents by Richard Muller.

Accordingly, what happened was that the burning gasoline in the plane melted the metal support structure on one of the floors, so that one floor collapsed onto another (like the melting of a cake layer). When the first floor collapsed, this caused a domino effect as the lower floors failed structurally one after another.

So the building fell due to fire rather than the impact of the plane. I am told this is consistent with the time scale of the building collapse.

In any case, I'm not deleting my previous comment with all speculations because it still goes to show; the dynamical system of the building and the plane was too complex to guess what was going on.

Comment author: roland 25 December 2009 04:31:49PM -1 points [-]

Well, in this thread we are discussing the collapse of WTC7 which was not hit by any plane.