MichaelVassar comments on Two Truths and a Lie - Less Wrong

59 Post author: Psychohistorian 23 December 2009 06:34AM

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Comment author: Cyan 24 December 2009 12:34:34AM *  3 points [-]

Natural selection doesn't explain why or predict that a bird might have detrimental traits such as bright coloring that can betray it to predators. Darwin invented a whole other selective mechanism to explain the appearance of such traits -- sexual selection, later elaborated into the Handicap principle. Sexually selected traits are necessarily historically contingent, but you can't just explain away any hereditary handicap as a product of sexual selection: the theory makes the nontrivial prediction that mate selection will depend on such traits.

Comment author: MichaelVassar 24 December 2009 02:44:52PM 6 points [-]

Sexual selection is just a type of natural selection, not a different mechanism. Just look at genes and be done with it.

Comment author: komponisto 25 December 2009 10:34:51PM -1 points [-]

I wish I could upvote this comment twice.

Comment author: Cyan 26 December 2009 12:43:37AM 2 points [-]

Why? I didn't really feel like trying to win over Michael Vassar, but since you feel so strongly about it, I should point out that biologists do find it useful to distinguish between "ecological selection" and "sexual selection".

Comment author: komponisto 27 December 2009 07:33:49PM 3 points [-]

For an analogy, consider the fact that mathematicians also find it useful to distinguish between "squares" and "rectangles" -- but they nevertheless correctly insist that all squares are in fact rectangles.

The problem here isn't that "sexual selection" isn't a useful concept on its own; the problem is the failure to appreciate how abstract the concept of "natural selection" is.

I have a similar feeling, ultimately, about the opposition between "natural selection" and "artificial selection", even though that contrast is perhaps more pedagogically useful.

Comment author: Cyan 27 December 2009 10:29:14PM 3 points [-]

The problem here isn't that "sexual selection" isn't a useful concept on its own; the problem is the failure to appreciate how abstract the concept of "natural selection" is.

I think there's a substantive dispute here, not merely semantics. The original complaint was that Natural Selection was an unconstrained theory; the point of my comment was that in specific cases, the actual operating selective mechanisms obey specific constraints. The more abstract a concept is (in OO terms, the higher in the class hierarchy), the less constraints it obeys. Saying that natural selection is an abstract concept that encompasses a variety of specific mechanisms is all well and good, but you can't instantiate an abstract class.