soreff comments on Rationality Quotes January 2010 - Less Wrong
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Pardon my drooling - I live in the United States. The inmates run much of the asylum here.
Do you know the history of how Finland acheived this compartmentalization of religion? Are there lessons in the path you followed that we can learn from? We can't directly follow your current-day practices because our would-be theocrats are still quite rabid, and hold significant power. I agree that head-on confrontation doesn't work. What did work?
Sociology isn't my strongest field (though not my weakest either) and I haven't studied this issue in detail, so I can't provide any very conclusive answers. Still, there's one thing that many people suspect to be at least partially responsible. Curiously enough, this is the existence of a state church. Two to be exact, one Lutheran and one Orthodox.
Most people are members of the Lutheran one (79,7% of the population in 2009, down from 85% in 2000 and from 90% in about 1980). They'll attend a week-long Confirmation camp around age 14, get a church marriage and have their children baptized, have a church funeral when they die. But the church is a very mild, non-radical one. Most of the kids I knew had their Confirmation because tradition says you get gifts afterwards and hey, a week spent camping! The lessons on theology you have to endure are an acceptable price to pay for that.
A prevailing theory is that this acts as a sort of an inoculation against more radical strands of religion. Religion is that traditional thing you grew up with, with neat rituals that bring some comfort and you'll likely believe in at least some of what they say, but that's about it. It's been mostly relegated to the position of "those nice people who provide nice traditional rituals for a few special occasions in everyone's life". And once you're used to the thought of that being the church's function, any church or religion that gets more involved in the daily lives of its followers will seem radical and fanatic in comparison.
ETA: The fact that the church is funded by taxes probably also helps, as it makes the church more independent from the common populace. They don't need to actively collect money from people. If they needed to, the fundraising events would probably reach out to more people and make them feel more committed to the church.
ETA2: Of course, this doesn't explain how the Lutheran church became so secularized. I don't know the answer to that myself either. A plausible hypothesis might be that as a state church, it's had a need to do what the rulers told it to, which has forced it to be more secular than churches that don't need to answer to anyone. That doesn't help much for the situation in the United States, of course.
Many thanks!
Yes, I've read analysis along those lines before as well.
Good point. And they don't need to carefully tune themselves to actually attract the population either. They are insulated from "market discipline".
Agnostics and atheists united to weaken church/state separation by funding lukewarm, preferably bureacratic state religion(s). Hmm, do I have the energy to set up a web site...
One comment and one odd suggestion:
But, but...aren't they also supposed to maintain special cuisines for religious festival days too? Once the fangs are gone, I thought that that was one of the central purposes of a nominal religion... :-)
Perhaps the best solution to Islam is to add a third...
I found an interesting article which contains a summary of what people in the Nordic countries think are the most important functions of the church:
Interestingly, the article also concludes that simply having a state church isn't enough, if the population is too heterogeneous:
Many thanks!
Sounds like the state churches should look for a way to inject themselves into graduation ceremonies... Tricky balancing act, keeping them banal and toothless, but not fading into oblivion...
Ouch! So innoculation via state religion has the same heterogeneity problem that personalized medicine has...