RobinZ comments on Consciousness - Less Wrong

2 Post author: Mitchell_Porter 08 January 2010 12:18PM

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Comment author: RobinZ 10 January 2010 04:03:55AM 2 points [-]

Who are you responding to? I am inclined to believe it is physicalists such as myself, but in that case your remark that about having "reached a dead end and you're desperately banging your heads against the wall" is a non sequitur. I'm not banging my head against the wall due to a dissatisfaction with my worldview, I'm banging my head against the wall due to a failure to find agreement with Mitchell_Porter.

Comment deleted 10 January 2010 01:28:24PM [-]
Comment author: RobinZ 10 January 2010 08:43:08PM *  1 point [-]

What follows is the abstract from "Room for a view: on the metaphysical subject of personal identity", Daniel Kolak.

Sydney Shoemaker leads today's "neo-Lockean" liberation of persons from the conservative animalist charge of "neo-Aristotelians" such as Eric Olson, according to whom persons are biological entities and who challenge all neo-Lockean views on grounds that abstracting from strictly physical, or bodily, criteria plays fast and loose with our identities. There is a fundamental mistake on both sides: a false dichotomy between bodily continuity versus psychological continuity theories of personal identity. Neo-Lockeans, like everyone else today who relies on Locke’s analysis of personal identity, including Derek Parfit, have either completely distorted or not understood Locke's actual view. Shoemaker's defense, which uses a "package deal" definition that relies on internal relations of synchronic and diachronic unity and employs the Ramsey-Lewis account to define personal identity, leaves far less room for psychological continuity views than for my own view, which, independently of its radical implications, is that (a) consciousness makes personal identity, and (b) in consciousness alone personal identity consists--which happens to be also Locke's actual view. Moreover, the ubiquitous Fregean conception of borders and the so-called "ambiguity of is" collapse in the light of what Hintikka has called the "Frege trichotomy." The Ramsey-Lewis account, due to the problematic way Shoemaker tries to bind the variables, makes it impossible for the neo-Lockean ala Shoemaker to fulfill the uniqueness clause required by all such Lewis style definitions; such attempts avoid circularity only at the expense of mistaking isomorphism with identity. Contrary to what virtually all philosophers writing on the topic assume, fission does not destroy personal identity. A proper analysis of public versus perspectival identification, derived using actual case studies from neuropsychiatry, provides the scientific, mathematical and logical frameworks for a new theory of self-reference, wherein "consciousness," "self-consciousness," and the "I," can be precisely defined in terms of the subject and the subject-in-itself.

I think it is safe to say that this was not written for a general audience. Before I spend any more of my time trying to decipher text with no expectation of enjoyment, I would like to know - in lay terms - what bearing it has upon Mitchell_Porter's remarks.

Edit: If, as Jack states, there is no relation, it would behoove you to write a summary in lay terms as a top level post rather than drop it into a merely tangentially related discussion.

Comment author: RichardKennaway 10 January 2010 09:44:57PM 1 point [-]

"Frameworks for a new theory" are too dear at ten a penny, and the above text seems to me as worthless as anything output by the Postmodernism Generator. The other sources that Alexxarian linked seem to me no more interesting.

A more readable text by Kolak, which I see was linked by Alexxarian in an earlier comment, is "I am You". The pages available on Google may give a measure of whether Kolak is worth reading.

Wikipedia describes him as "one of the most prolific philosophers in the world". I tremble! Actually, some of the things mentioned in the wiki article look interesting, but the article clearly fails NPOV, being copied from one on croatia.org lauding this Famous Croatian. Certainly, his productivity is awesome.

Comment author: Jack 10 January 2010 09:19:29PM 0 points [-]

Googling Kolak I can see he indeed holds the very strange view that I am identical to you. But this particular paper basically consists of a decent outline of the present personal identity debate and a brief statement of Kolak's own view which for me, is a vague, mysterious description of a view that basically says "I am the the thing that the indexical "I" points to in this sentence." Which is a perfectly fine view except that it answers hardly any questions (My reply is "Duh, now is that thing a body or a psychological state?") Then somehow in the remaining paragraphs this becomes "the brain is not sufficient for personal identity" and strange, out of context Wittgenstein quotes. Anyway, it didn't really have anything to do with this discussion.

Comment author: thomblake 11 January 2010 03:59:51PM 0 points [-]

strange, out of context Wittgenstein quotes

A note for those not familiar with Wittgenstein: Many of his quotes are strange and out-of-context in the original writing. It's part of the charm.