RobinZ comments on Consciousness - Less Wrong

2 Post author: Mitchell_Porter 08 January 2010 12:18PM

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Comment author: RobinZ 11 January 2010 03:47:40AM 3 points [-]

Since Dennett takes care to deny that there is anything that is actually colored, even in the mind, and that there are only words, dispositions to classify, and so forth, he arguably wishes to deny even that there is a "color feeling", though it's hard to be sure.

Citation or he didn't say it. Daniel Dennett coined the phrase "greedy reductionism" - partially to emphasize that he does not deny the existence of color, consciousness, etc. Unless you know of some place where he reversed his position, I would argue that you have misinterpreted his remarks. My understanding is that his position is that color is an idiosyncratic property of the human visual perception system with no simple referent in physics, not no referent at all.

(I normally wouldn't make such a big deal of it, but Dennett is one of the major figures on the physicalist side of this debate, and a mischaracterization of his views impedes the ability of bystanders to perform a fair comparison.)

Comment author: PhilGoetz 11 January 2010 04:52:38AM 0 points [-]

In Explaining Consciousness, chapter 2, p. 28, Dennett says there is no purple in the brain when we see purple. That may be what he means.

I also heard Dennett quoted as saying there is no such thing as qualia, allegedly in "The taboo of subjectivity", p. 139, which I don't have.

Comment author: anonym 12 January 2010 07:51:50AM 3 points [-]

Here is a full quote that makes clear in exactly what sense he doesn't believe in qualia:

So when we look one last time at our original characterization of qualia, as ineffable, intrinsic, private, directly apprehensible properties of experience, we find that there is nothing to fill the bill. In their place are relatively or practically ineffable public properties we can refer to indirectly via reference to our private property-detectors — private only in the sense of idiosyncratic. And insofar as we wish to cling to our subjective authority about the occurrence within us of states of certain types or with certain properties, we can have some authority — not infallibility or incorrigibility, but something better than sheer guessing — but only if we restrict ourselves to relational, extrinsic properties like the power of certain internal states of ours to provoke acts of apparent re-identification. So contrary to what seems obvious at first blush, there simply are no qualia at all.

Originally in Quining Qualia, 1988, by Dennett, and quoted on Multiple-Drafts Model.

Comment author: anonym 12 January 2010 04:20:41AM *  1 point [-]

The Taboo of Subjectivity is a book by B. Alan Wallace. It appears that Dennett wrote a review for that work, but I couldn't find it online. Are you referring to that review, or to something else?

Comment author: anonym 12 January 2010 04:59:43AM *  0 points [-]

I see what you meant now. Dennett was quoted in Wallace's book, on p.139. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

The quote, with some context, is:

Paul Churchland, one of the most prominent advocates of this view [eliminative materialism], declares that commonsense experience is probably irreducible to, and therefore incommensurable with, neuroscience; and for this reason familiar mental states should be regarded as nonexistent or at most as "false and misleading"^18. For similar reasons, philosopher Daniel Dennett bluntly asserts: "[t]here simply are no qualia at all."^19

18 . Paul M. Churchland, 1990, Matter and Consciousness: A Contemporary Introduction to the Philosophy of Mind, p. 41 & 48.

19 . Daniel C. Dennett, 1991, Consciousness Explained, p. 74.

Comment author: RobinZ 22 January 2010 01:55:04PM 0 points [-]

Belatedly:

  • I think the reference on p. 28 is pointing out that the brain doesn't turn purple (and a purple brain wouldn't help anyway, as there are no eyes in the brain to see the purple). The remainder of the page is extending the example to further elaborate the problem of subjective experience.

  • I cannot find the reference to qualia quoted in The Taboo of Subjectivity at all - p. 74 is before Dennett even defines qualia, and p. 374 does not have those exact words - only the conclusion of a thought experiment illuminating his rejection of the concept.

Comment author: RobinZ 11 January 2010 03:23:50PM 0 points [-]

Thanks for the page number - I'll see if I can find it in my copy when I get home.

Comment author: Bo102010 11 January 2010 04:05:27AM *  0 points [-]

Upvoted. I searched Google for about 15 seconds looking for the quote and didn't find it, but I remember seeing or hearing Dennett say once how flabbergasted he is about being "oh yeah, that guy who thinks we don't see color."

Comment author: Mitchell_Porter 11 January 2010 04:36:44AM 0 points [-]

He does not use the expression "color feeling", but here's a direct quote from Consciousness Explained, chapter 12, part 4:

You seem to be referring to a private, ineffable something-or-other in your mind's eye, a private shade of homogeneous pink, but this is just how it seems to you, not how it is... what it turns out to be in the real world in your brain is just a complex of dispositions.

He explicitly denies that there is any such thing as a "private shade of homogeneous pink" - which I would consider a reasonably apt description of the phenomenological reality. He also says there is something real, a "complex of dispositions". And, he also says that when we refer to color, we think we're referring to the former, but we're really referring to the latter. So, subjective color does not exist, but references to color do exist.

That still leaves room for there to be "appearances of pink". No actual pink, but also more than a mere belief in pink; some actual phenomenon, appearance, component of experience, which people mistakenly think is pink. But I see no trace of this. The thing which he is prepared to call real, the "complex of dispositions", is entirely cognitive (in the previous paragraph he refers to "innate and learned associations and reactive dispositions"). There is no reference to appearance, experience, or any other aspect of subjectivity.

Therefore, I conclude that not only does Dennett deny the existence of color (yes, I know he still uses the word, but he explicitly defines it to refer to something else), he denies that there is even an appearance of color, a "color feeling". In his account of color phenomenology, there are just beliefs about nonexistent things, and that's it.

Comment author: byrnema 11 January 2010 04:59:32AM *  3 points [-]

So, subjective color does not exist, but references to color do exist.

The references to red together definitely form a physical network in my brain, right? I have a list of 10,000 things in my memory that are vividly red, some more vivid than others, and they're all potentially connected under this label 'red'. When that entire network is stimulated (say, by my seeing something red or imagining what "red" is), might I not also give that a label? I could call the stimulation of the entire network the "essence of red" or "redness" and have a subjective feeling about it.

I'm certain this particular theory about what "redness" occurs frequently. My question is, what's missing in this explanation from the dualist point of view? Why can't the subjective experience of red just be the whole network of red associations being simultaneously excited as an entity?

Above you wrote

Some people are at the stage of saying, color is a neural classification and I don't see any further problem.

So I guess I'm just asking, what's the further problem? (If you've already answered, would you please link to it?)

Comment author: Tyrrell_McAllister 11 January 2010 04:45:46AM *  2 points [-]

What are in those ellipses? In what you quote, I see that he's denying that it's "a private, ineffable something-or-other in your mind's eye". From what else I've read of Dennett, I'm sure that he has a problem with the "private" and "ineffable" part. Is it so clear that he has a problem with the "component of experience" part?

Comment author: Mitchell_Porter 14 January 2010 06:19:07AM 1 point [-]

In the book, a character called Otto advocates the position that qualia exists. The full passage is Dennett making his case to Otto once again:

What qualia are, Otto, are just those complexes of dispositions. When you say "This is my quale", what you are singling out, or referring to, whether you realize it or not, is your idiosyncratic complex of dispositions. You seem to be referring to a private, ineffable something-or-other in your mind's eye, a private shade of homogeneous pink, but this is just how it seems to you, not how it is. That "quale" of yours is a character in good standing in the fictional world of your heterophenomenology, but what it turns out to be in the real world in your brain is just a complex of dispositions.

Comment author: Morendil 14 January 2010 07:51:32AM 0 points [-]

And how would you answer that passage of Dennett's ?