magfrump comments on The Preference Utilitarian’s Time Inconsistency Problem - Less Wrong

25 Post author: Wei_Dai 15 January 2010 12:26AM

You are viewing a comment permalink. View the original post to see all comments and the full post content.

Comments (104)

You are viewing a single comment's thread. Show more comments above.

Comment author: magfrump 18 January 2010 07:15:00PM 0 points [-]

"Exposed to these situations" means to say that when someone asks about utilitarianism they say, "if there was a fat man in front of a train filled with single parents and you could push him out of the way or let the train run off a cliff what would you do?" To which my reply is, "When does that ever happen and how does answering that question help me be more ethical?"

Digression: if a decision-theoretic model was translated into a set of axiomatic behaviors could you potentially apply Godel's Incompleteness Theorem to prove that simple and consistent is in fact too much to ask?

Comment author: orthonormal 18 January 2010 08:18:19PM *  7 points [-]

Please don't throw around Gödel's Theorem before you've really understood it— that's one thing that makes people look like cranks!

"When does that ever happen and how does answering that question help me be more ethical?"

Very rarely; but pondering such hypotheticals has helped me to see what some of my actual moral intuitions are, once they are stripped of rationalizations (and chances to dodge the question). From that point on, I can reflect on them more effectively.

Comment author: magfrump 19 January 2010 04:33:58PM 1 point [-]

Sorry to sound crankish. Rather than "simple and inconsistent" I might have said that there were contrived and thus unanswerable questions. Regardless it distracted and I shouldn't have digressed at all.

Anyway thank you for the good answer concerning hypotheticals.

Comment author: Jack 19 January 2010 02:38:56AM 7 points [-]

"Exposed to these situations" means to say that when someone asks about utilitarianism they say, "if there was a fat man in front of a train filled with single parents and you could push him out of the way or let the train run off a cliff what would you do?" To which my reply is, "When does that ever happen and how does answering that question help me be more ethical?"

These thought experiments aren't supposed to make you more ethical, they're supposed to help us understand our morality. If you think there are regularities in ethics- general rules that apply to multiple situations then it helps to concoct scenarios to see how those rules function. Often they're contrived because they are experiments, set up to see how the introduction of a moral principle affects our intuitions. In natural science experimental conditions usually have to be concocted as well. You don't usually find two population groups for whom everything is the same except for one variable, for example.

Digression: if a decision-theoretic model was translated into a set of axiomatic behaviors could you potentially apply Godel's Incompleteness Theorem to prove that simple and consistent is in fact too much to ask?

Agree with orthonormal. Not sure what this would mean. I don't think Godel even does that for arithmetic-- arithmetic is simple (though not trivial) and consistent, it just isn't complete. I have no idea if ethics could be a complete axiomatic system, I haven't done much on completeness beyond predicate calculus and Godel is still a little over my head.

I just mean that any simple set of principles will have to be applied inconsistently to match our intuitions. This, on moral particularism, is relevant.

Comment author: magfrump 19 January 2010 04:37:34PM 0 points [-]

I didn't use "consistence" very rigorously here, I more meant that even if a principle matched our intuitions there would be unanswerable questions.

Regardless, good answer. The link seems to be broken for me, though.

Comment author: Jack 19 January 2010 06:19:04PM 0 points [-]

Link is working fine for me. It is also the first google result for "moral particularism", so you can get there that way.

Comment author: magfrump 20 January 2010 01:25:45AM 0 points [-]

Tried that and it gave me the same broken site. It works now.

Comment author: Nick_Tarleton 19 January 2010 03:01:32AM 0 points [-]

Why on Earth was this downvoted?