arundelo comments on What big goals do we have? - Less Wrong

10 Post author: cousin_it 19 January 2010 04:35PM

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Comment author: arundelo 19 January 2010 05:30:46PM 1 point [-]

Without God or deity, human experience/life has no goals or process to work towards

Was any argument given for this claim?

Comment author: byrnema 19 January 2010 06:00:55PM *  5 points [-]

Interesting, this is exactly how I felt a week ago. I am the product of western culture, after all. Anyway, if no arguments are provided I can explain the reasoning since I'm pretty familiar with it. I also know exactly where the error in reasoning was.

The error is this: the reasoning assumes that humans desires are designed in a way that makes sense with respect to the way reality is. In other words, that we're not inherently deluded or mislead by our basic nature in some (subjectively) unacceptable way. However, the unexamined premise behind this is that we were designed with some care. With the other point of view -- that we are designed by mechanisms with no in-borne mechanism concerned for our well-being -- it is amazing that experience isn't actually more insufferable than it is. Well, I realize that perhaps it is already as insufferable as it can be without more negatively affecting fitness.

But imagine, we could have accidentally evolved a neurological module that experiences excruciating pain constantly, but is unable to engage with behavior in a way to effect selection, and is unable to tell us about itself. Or it is likely, given the size of mind-space, that there are other minds experiencing intense suffering without the ability to seek reprieve in non-existence. How theism works explains that while theists are making stuff up, they can make up everything to be as good as they wish. On the other hand, without a God to keep things in check, there is no limit on how horrible reality can be.

Comment author: pjeby 20 January 2010 01:07:33AM 3 points [-]

The error is this: the reasoning assumes that humans desires are designed in a way that makes sense with respect to the way reality is. In other words, that we're not inherently deluded or mislead by our basic nature in some (subjectively) unacceptable way.

Interestingly, this is the exact opposite of Zen, in which it's considered a premise that we are inherently deluded and misled by our basic nature... and in large part due to our need to label things. As in How An Algorithm Feels From Inside, Zen attempts to point out that our basic nature is delusion: we feel as though questions like "Does the tree make a sound?" and "What is the nature of objective morality?" actually have some sort of sensible meaning.

(Of course, I have to say that Eliezer's writing on the subject did a lot more for allowing me to really grasp that idea than my Zen studies ever did. OTOH, Zen provides more opportunities to feel as though the world is an undifferentiated whole, its own self with no labels needed.)

Comment author: RobinZ 19 January 2010 06:08:36PM 3 points [-]

On the other hand, without a God to keep things in check, there is no limit on how horrible reality can be.

Eliezer Yudkowsky made quite a good essay on this theme - Beyond the Reach of God.

Comment author: Zachary_Kurtz 19 January 2010 05:56:22PM 3 points [-]

Without God there's no end game, just fleeting existence.

Comment author: arundelo 19 January 2010 08:07:43PM *  2 points [-]

Thanks for the edit to the original comment; I was unsure whether you were arguing for a view or just describing it (though I assumed the latter based on your other comments).

Without God there's no end game, just fleeting existence.

Like the statement in the original comment (and like most arguments for religion), this one is in great need of unpacking. People invoke things like "ultimate purpose" without saying what they mean. But I think a lot of people who agreed with the above would say that life is worthless if it simply ends when the body dies. To which I say:

If a life that begins and eventually ends has no "meaning" or "purpose" (whatever those words mean), then an infinitely long one doesn't either. Zero times infinity is still zero.

(Of course I know what the everyday meanings of "meaning" and "purpose" are, but those obviously aren't the meanings religionists use them with.)

Edit: nerzhin points out that Zero times infinity is not well defined. (Cold comfort, I think, to the admittedly imaginary theist making the "finite life is worthless" argument.)

I am a math amateur; I understand limit notation and "f(x)" notation, but I failed to follow the reasoning at the MathWorld link. Does nerzhin or anyone else know someplace that spells it out more? (Right now I'm studying the Wikipedia "Limit of a function" page.)

Comment author: nerzhin 19 January 2010 08:19:21PM 5 points [-]

Zero times infinity is still zero.

Strictly speaking, no.

Comment author: RobinZ 19 January 2010 06:01:33PM *  2 points [-]
Comment author: Vladimir_Nesov 20 January 2010 12:05:29AM *  -1 points [-]

Edit: this comment happens to reply to an out-of-context sentence that is not endorsed by Zachary_Kurtz. Thanks to grouchymusicologist for noticing my mistake.

Without God there's no end game, just fleeting existence.

You happen to be wrong on this one. Please read the sequences, in particular the Metaethics sequence and Joy in the Merely Real.

Comment author: grouchymusicologist 20 January 2010 02:10:34AM 3 points [-]

Pretty sure ZK is not endorsing this view but instead responding to the query "Was any argument given for this claim?"

Upvoted ZK's comment for this reason.

Comment author: Vladimir_Nesov 20 January 2010 02:44:44AM 2 points [-]

Thanks, my mistake.

Comment author: Zachary_Kurtz 20 January 2010 04:32:58PM 0 points [-]

no problem.. it happens