Blueberry comments on Bizarre Illusions - Less Wrong

11 Post author: MrHen 27 January 2010 06:25PM

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Comment author: Blueberry 29 January 2010 07:25:40PM 0 points [-]

So would you agree that my thesis is at least accurate for a portion of the population? (The thesis was, "People don't really like the taste but use the supposed taste and other reasons as an excuse for getting high in a socially acceptable way and keeping it legal to do so.")

I think people usually either find a taste they like when they drink (sometimes mixing in sweet drinks), or drink just for the alcohol and grow to like the taste over time. I doubt many people claim to drink solely for the taste: I've never heard anyone say this, though people who enjoy the buzz of alcohol also say they like the taste.

Comment author: SilasBarta 29 January 2010 07:32:45PM 0 points [-]

I think people usually either find a taste they like when they drink (sometimes mixing in sweet drinks), or drink just for the alcohol and grow to like the taste over time.

Again, this is something that could make anything taste good -- it's no evidence of liking the alcoholic drink. It's one of the very reasons I rolled my eyes at when people tried to convince me that I must actually like alcohol, because I like a certain drink that heavily dilutes the alcohol taste through sweetness.

I doubt many people claim to drink solely for the taste: I've never heard anyone say this, though people who enjoy the buzz of alcohol also say they like the taste.

I've certainly seen people put on that pretense, and, in any case, they certainly claim it's a driving factor, if for no other reason than the vastly varying prices for the same amount of alcohol.

Comment author: Kevin 29 January 2010 09:04:35PM *  3 points [-]

I do not particularly like the high of alcohol. However, I really like Belgian beer, and it has alcohol in it, sometimes large amounts, and it's a side effect I am willing to handle for the taste! Unfortunately, that side effect does mean I am forced to limit myself to about 3 beers in one sitting.

I wonder if you have never drank sufficiently good beer. It doesn't have to be that expensive even, super-high end beers are much cheaper than super-high end wine. $5-7 for a normal bottle, $30 for a bottle of the best beer in the world. http://www.ratebeer.com/beer/westvleteren-abt-12/4934/

If you're ever in Pittsburgh, I'll buy you a real beer at the Sharp Edge.

I also admit that your point is probably correct and I am something of an outlier -- and it's really just Belgian beer that I would drink despite the alcohol; most other beer and wine and liquor is nothing special.

Comment author: SilasBarta 29 January 2010 10:29:23PM *  0 points [-]

Thanks for the offer, and your input.

Pay attention, everyone. This is what it looks like when you really like drinking something, rather than its effect on your mind:

I do not particularly like the high of alcohol. However, I really like Belgian beer, and it has alcohol in it, sometimes large amounts, and it's a side effect I am wiling to handle for the taste! Unfortunately, that side effect does mean I am forced to limit myself to about 3 beers in one sitting.

When you start running into hard limits about how much of the stuff you can consume before deleterious effects on your body, and this is a downside to you, that definitely sounds like a serious enjoyment. (That's where I am regarding ice cream and many other sweets.)

In contrast, when there are very narrow situations in which you enjoy its "taste", and drink "just enough" to accomplish mild relaxation when you want to, um, mildly relax, well, then I start to get skeptical.

Comment author: Blueberry 29 January 2010 07:52:34PM 0 points [-]

I've certainly seen people put on that pretense, and, in any case, they certainly claim it's a driving factor, if for no other reason than the vastly varying prices for the same amount of alcohol.

I think I understand. We're talking about two different things.

You're saying, if I understand correctly, that there's a great deal of snobbery in alcohol drinking: people claim that expensive wines or liquors taste so much better, and this claim doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

Outside of this snobbery, though, just in terms of friendly social drinking, almost everyone agrees that they drink because they enjoy the feeling, and the taste is just something they grew to like over time, or they mix it with something sweet to make it taste better.

Comment author: SilasBarta 29 January 2010 07:59:38PM 0 points [-]

Outside of this snobbery, though, just in terms of friendly social drinking, almost everyone agrees that they drink because they enjoy the feeling, and the taste is just something they grew to like over time, or they mix it with something sweet to make it taste better.

Um, no, and that's the problem. I have never been able to get people to admit that it's just about the mental effects, and that they have to find ways to make themselves tolerate the awful taste. Not without a lot of teeth-pulling, and people telling me about all the wonderful arguments against this position.

Again, it's the insistence that they like "this particular drink" because it's "so good" that bothers me. No, it's about getting high, and no one will talk about this.

Comment author: Blueberry 29 January 2010 08:43:59PM 5 points [-]

I'm surprised by this experimental result. In my experience most people say that it's about the mental effects as well as the taste. Just to be clear: over half the people you ask say that they don't drink alcohol for the mental effects at all, and it's solely about the taste?

I wonder if part of this is due to the way you're asking. You use language like "tolerate the awful taste", "suffer through", and compare it to hot sauce and engine oil. Obviously you strongly dislike the taste of alcohol. Not everyone does though; while I drink primarily for the mental effects, I also enjoy and have acquired a taste for some different types of alcohol, and I like some combinations of flavors when having a beer with food.

So maybe you're getting strong reactions in contrast to your extreme statements that alcohol tastes awful and no one could ever like the taste.

Comment author: SilasBarta 29 January 2010 08:51:49PM 0 points [-]

It's more like this:

me: I think I'm strange. I don't like alcoholic drinks. I mean, I like the effect on me, but not the taste, not the process of drinking it.

them: Yeah, that is strange. I mean, I like margaritas.

me: Oh really? What do you like about them?

them: Well, I like them when I go out dancing...

me: No, I mean, like, about the taste.

them: Well, I like those really frozen ones with lots of different fruit flavors.

me: So you like the taste of those margaritas? What is it about the taste?

them: Um, well, it helps me to relax. [Alternate: It's kind of a social thing/social lubricant.]

me: *falls out of chair* Okay, so about the taste. Do you like the taste more than that of a milkshake?

them: Hm, that's a good question, I've never even thought of that. No, I like the milkshake much better.

me: *loses hope in humanity*

Comment author: MrHen 29 January 2010 09:03:05PM 3 points [-]

What would happen if you asked someone this:

me: So you like the taste of those margaritas? What is it about the taste?

And they answered your question? Specifically, would one good response cause you to rethink your theory on the subject? How many responses would you need to be convinced?

I am not saying I have those responses. I am just curious.

Comment author: Blueberry 29 January 2010 09:08:11PM 2 points [-]

It sounds like the person here is saying he drinks for the mental effects ("it helps me to relax"), and that he doesn't mind the taste because it's mixed with things he likes ("fruit flavors"). This seems like the answer I'd expect.

Whereas it seems like you absolutely despise the taste, most people who drink don't mind it, and sometimes like it, especially when mixed with fruit or sweet tastes.

Comment author: SilasBarta 29 January 2010 10:04:03PM *  0 points [-]

But they don't like it, "especially when mixed with fruit or sweet tastes (and taste-bud numbing ice, but whatever)". Rather, they like sweet, fruity, cold drinks, and still find them good, even if it is worsened with a little alcohol.

That, I think is the appropriate way to characterize it.. Again, remember my incessant point about baseline comparisons: if someone likes fruity sweetness, it's going to make pretty much anything (that doesn't clash) taste good. But so what? That doesn't mean they like the stuff its mixed with. It just means they like that fruity sweetness, and their enjoyment may persist even if the drink is degraded with other, worse flavors.

What's more, conversations like these (alarmingly typical) reveal that people aren't even thinking about the distinction between liking a drink for its taste, and liking it because they like getting high -- and nor are they interested in learning.

Comment author: AndyWood 30 January 2010 01:02:05AM *  2 points [-]

I've been watching this thread for a while, and as a frequent alcohol-drinker, I thought I would try to report my experience as honestly as I can manage:

  • Beer: In an absolute sense, I don't like the taste. Since some beers taste less bad - or more interesting - than others, I will sometimes comment that a particular beer tastes "really good". What I mean though, is that it tastes "really good" for a beer. I drink quite a lot of beer, because I usually prefer the slower, gentler, more controllable buzz to that of harder alcohol. I've heard plenty of women say they don't like beer. In some circles, it's considered unmanly for a man to say he doesn't like beer, and I expect that's why I hear it much less from men. In some situations, I take the praise of beer as shorthand for "I know we all don't have much in common, nor any real reason beyond company for hanging out, so lets go through the motions of affirming our mutual love for something that is safe to affirm mutual love for."
  • Wine: This is definitely all about the taste, but it's not at all the same category of taste as sugar or a milkshake. This is all about the complexity of dozens of interacting flavors. It is a kaleidescope that you "see" with your tongue. It's a taste experience by definition, but that doesn't mean that it is anything like the tastiness of a milkshake. The thrill is in the richness of the patterns that exist in the taste. Importantly, I find that only certain wines at certain ages produce this effect to a worthwhile degree. Lousy wine tastes lousy. A really good cabernet franc, say, can be the kind of amazing that makes me bolt upright in my chair and go wide-eyed. Really. As far as the alcohol component, it is such an intrinsic part of the taste-orchestra that I, unfortunately, find it impossible to speculate on whether I'd still drink wine without it. I think I would still drink it if it did not produce a buzz, although there would be one less reason. I think I would still like swishing it around, even if I was only going to spit it out. Needless to say, I find it to be an extremely pleasant way to get buzzed.
  • Mixed drinks/Hard alcohol: As far as I'm concerned, these have always existed solely as a fast-track to getting buzzed or drunk. For me, they might as well be an IV drip. I, however, administer them in the normal way, because it is normal and practical. Also, sipping lets me roughly calibrate my dosage to match others, and the situation.
  • Bat urine: I don't think this is a fair argument at all, because you cannot separate your disgust reaction from pure taste, in the experience of drinking something. Several bodily fluids have little/fairly neutral taste, but the experience of drinking it would still be disgusting.

I agree that most alcohol consumption is mainly about the buzz. I like different states of consciousness. The one induced by alcohol is not my favorite, but it's one I can enjoy without having to sneak around or worry about prison, so I make do with the (somewhat personally disappointing) political freedoms I have. I do drink wine for the taste - it just isn't the same kind of taste as anything else. It's a sensory-overload experience that happens to be delivered by the tongue.

Comment author: Kevin 29 January 2010 10:34:17PM 0 points [-]

Isn't it possible that a little bit of complex, astringent bitterness can actually make a sweet fruity drink more palatable? I wouldn't drink a virgin margherita; I honestly believe the tequilla and triple sec make it taste better.

Comment author: bgrah449 29 January 2010 10:08:47PM 0 points [-]

It seems like this whole argument is motivated out of a wish to make it socially acceptable to say "I don't like the taste of beer" by trying to paint everyone who disagrees as liars.

Comment author: Unknowns 29 January 2010 10:30:43PM 1 point [-]

No, I think he simply hates the taste of alcohol so much that he can't conceive that someone could honestly like it.

Comment author: SilasBarta 29 January 2010 10:37:15PM -2 points [-]

I ask that you take serious note of the sympathy with which I've characterized these liars. I completely understand why they have to put on a show: anything that does to your mind what alcoholic drinks do, but doesn't have wide-scale social support from respectable people, is going to get banned or otherwise given severe restrictions. Such a pretense doesn't strike me as so wrong here.

What bothers me is the widespread refusal to acknowledge this, even in private.