MrHen comments on Logical Rudeness - Less Wrong

65 Post author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 29 January 2010 06:48AM

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Comment author: byrnema 29 January 2010 04:44:52PM 13 points [-]

In some cultures, like that of my mother's, it is extremely rude to press a person to capitulation. It is expected that people should parry in such a way that neither person loses face. In such contexts, talking in circles, softening the argument and changing the line of the argument -- by either party -- can be signs that one person has already conceded. It's not only polite to save the face of the person 'losing' the argument, it is polite to spare the 'winner' from the embarrassment of causing any loss of face. To the extent that if someone ever abruptly concedes an argument in a face-to-face encounter, I assume that they belong to this culture, and I will rewind the argument to see how I offended them -- usually by pressing my argument too hard or too directly.

My father, on the other hand, thought that a touch-down dance must be done on the corpse of every argument, to make sure that it is never resurrected. To not do so would weaken the argument. And I think this is a common American view -- that if you are difficult to throw down and hold down, then your opponent's argument needs to be stronger.

The member of your e-mail list had a third view, which I think is defensible in its contrast to these two extremes.

Comment author: MrHen 29 January 2010 05:24:00PM 4 points [-]

And I think this is a common American view -- that if you are difficult to throw down and hold down, then your opponent's argument needs to be stronger.

I think "American" is too general in this context. My home state is Minnesota and the culture there is very passive aggressive. There is a small subset of people who act like your father and are very active aggressive; the majority will bend over backwards to say one thing while meaning another. Meta-communication is huge in this context. If you suddenly switch roles from being passive aggressive to active aggressive the entire community will beat the hell out of you.

"Minnesota nice" is always said with an inside smirk because we know what is happening behind the smile.

I now live in Texas which is a completely different form of "nice." The people here are more willing to give up a conversation if it will end in someone getting hurt. The behavior of "nice" is expected because they expect people to be nice. Minnesota expects the behavior even though they aren't actually that nice.

Of course, your mileage may vary.

Comment author: byrnema 29 January 2010 07:35:59PM *  3 points [-]

I think "American" is too general in this context.

You're absolutely right. I only risked this generalization because it seemed to match various American stereotypes enough to help people identify the behavior, without much risk of causing offense because "American" doesn't actually mean anything. Narrower labels are more misleading, which is why I won't share here the cultural group of my mother.