Roko comments on Strong moral realism, meta-ethics and pseudo-questions. - Less Wrong

18 [deleted] 31 January 2010 08:20PM

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Comment author: komponisto 31 January 2010 09:12:59PM 11 points [-]

I think there's an ambiguity between "realism" in the sense of "these statements I'm making are answers to a well-formed question and have a truth value" and "morality is a transcendent ineffable stuff floating out there which compels all agents to obey and could make murder right by having a different state".

Yes -- and the important thing to remember is that the second view, which all of us here agree is silly, is the naive, common-sense human view. It's what people are automatically going to think you're talking about if you go around shouting "Yes Virginia, there are moral facts after all!"

Meanwhile, the general public has a term for the view that you and I share: they call it "moral relativism".

I don't recall exactly, and I haven't yet bothered to look it up, but I believe when you first introduced your metaethics, there were people (myself among them, I think), who objected, not to your actual meta-ethical views, but to the way that you vigorously denied that you were a "relativist"; and you misunderstood them/us as objecting to your theory itself (I think you maybe even threw in an accusation of not comprehending the logical subtleties of Loeb's Theorem).

What makes the theory relativist is simply the fact that it refers explicitly to particular agents -- humans. Thus, it is automatically subject to the "chauvinism" objection with respect to e.g. Babyeaters: we prefer one thing, they prefer another -- why should we do what we prefer rather than what they prefer? The correct answer is, of course, "because that's what we prefer". But people find that answer unpalatable -- and one reason they might is because it would seem to imply that different human cultures should similarly run right over each other if they don't think they share the same values. Now, we may not like the term "relativism", but it seems to me that this "chauvinism" objection is one that you (and I) need to take at least somewhat seriously.

Comment deleted 31 January 2010 09:38:17PM *  [-]
Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 31 January 2010 11:02:26PM 1 point [-]

I truly and honestly say to you, Roko, that while you got most of my points, maybe even 75% of my points, there seems to be a remaining point that is genuinely completely lost on you. And a number of other people. It is a difficult point. People here are making fun of my attempt to explain it using an analogy to Lob's Theorem, as if that was the sort of thing I did on a whim, or because of being stupid. But... my dear audience... really, by this point, you ought to be giving me the benefit of the doubt about that sort of thing.

Also, it appears from the comment posted below and earlier that this mysterious missed point is accessible to, for example, Nick Tarleton.

It looks to me like the opposing position is not based on disagreement with this point but rather outright failure to understand what is being said.

Comment author: SilasBarta 31 January 2010 11:21:49PM *  13 points [-]

Well, you did make a claim about what is the right translation when speaking to babyeaters:

we and they are talking about a different subject matter and it is an error of the computer translation programs that the word comes out as "morality" in both cases. Morality is about how to save babies, not eat them, everyone knows that and they happen to be right. If we could get past difficulties of the translation, the babyeaters would agree with us about what is moral, we would agree with them about what is babyeating

But there has to be some standard by which you prefer the explanation "we mistranslated the term 'morality'" to "we disagree about morality", right? What is that? Presumably, one could make your argument about any two languages, not just ones with a species gap:

"We and Spaniards are talking about a different subject matter and it is an error of the computer translation programs that the word comes out as "morality" in both cases. Morality is about how to protect freedoms, not restrict them, everyone knows that and they happen to be right. If we could get past difficulties of the translation, the Spaniards would agree with us about what is moral, we would agree with them about what is familydutyhonoring."

ETA: A lot of positive response to this, but let me add that I think a better term in the last place would be something like "morality-to-Spaniards". The intuition behind the original phrasing was to show how you can redefine Spanish standards of morality to be "not-morality", but rather, just "things that we place different priority on".

But it's clearly absurd there: the correct translation of ética is not "ethics-to-Spaniards", but rather, just plain old "ethics". And the same reasoning should apply to the babyeather case.

Comment author: gregconen 02 February 2010 01:38:02PM *  4 points [-]

To go a step further, moral disagreement doesn't require a language barrier at all.

"We and abolitionists are talking about a different subject matter and it is an error of the "computer translation programs" that the word comes out as "morality" in both cases. Morality is about how to create a proper relationship between races, everyone knows that and they happen to be right. If we could get past difficulties of the "translation", the abolitionists would agree with us about what is moral, we would agree with them about what is abolitionism."

Comment author: timtyler 05 February 2010 07:29:48PM *  1 point [-]

Eliezer uses the word "should" in what seems to me to be a weird and highly counter-intuitive way.

Multiple people have advised him about this - but he seems to like his usage.