Unknowns comments on Strong moral realism, meta-ethics and pseudo-questions. - Less Wrong

18 [deleted] 31 January 2010 08:20PM

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Comment author: komponisto 31 January 2010 09:12:59PM 11 points [-]

I think there's an ambiguity between "realism" in the sense of "these statements I'm making are answers to a well-formed question and have a truth value" and "morality is a transcendent ineffable stuff floating out there which compels all agents to obey and could make murder right by having a different state".

Yes -- and the important thing to remember is that the second view, which all of us here agree is silly, is the naive, common-sense human view. It's what people are automatically going to think you're talking about if you go around shouting "Yes Virginia, there are moral facts after all!"

Meanwhile, the general public has a term for the view that you and I share: they call it "moral relativism".

I don't recall exactly, and I haven't yet bothered to look it up, but I believe when you first introduced your metaethics, there were people (myself among them, I think), who objected, not to your actual meta-ethical views, but to the way that you vigorously denied that you were a "relativist"; and you misunderstood them/us as objecting to your theory itself (I think you maybe even threw in an accusation of not comprehending the logical subtleties of Loeb's Theorem).

What makes the theory relativist is simply the fact that it refers explicitly to particular agents -- humans. Thus, it is automatically subject to the "chauvinism" objection with respect to e.g. Babyeaters: we prefer one thing, they prefer another -- why should we do what we prefer rather than what they prefer? The correct answer is, of course, "because that's what we prefer". But people find that answer unpalatable -- and one reason they might is because it would seem to imply that different human cultures should similarly run right over each other if they don't think they share the same values. Now, we may not like the term "relativism", but it seems to me that this "chauvinism" objection is one that you (and I) need to take at least somewhat seriously.

Comment author: Unknowns 01 February 2010 04:17:42AM *  -1 points [-]

As it is commonly understood, Eliezer is definitely NOT a moral relativist.

Comment author: komponisto 01 February 2010 04:22:14AM *  2 points [-]

(Downvoted for denying my claim without addressing my argument. That's very annoying.)

Comment author: MichaelBishop 03 February 2010 05:38:42PM *  0 points [-]

re: denying claim without addressing argument IMO, such comments are acceptable when the commenter is of high enough status in the community. Obviously I'd prefer they address the argument, but I consider myself better off just knowing that certain people agree or disagree.

ADDED: Note, I am merely stating my personal preference, not insisting that my personal preference become normatively binding on LW. I also happen to agree with Komponisto's judgment that Unknowns previous comment was unhelpful.

Comment author: komponisto 03 February 2010 05:50:36PM *  4 points [-]

I disagree.

ETA: Note that an implication of what you said is that replying in that manner constitutes an assertion of higher status than the other person; this is exactly why it is irritating.

Comment author: MichaelBishop 03 February 2010 06:31:13PM -1 points [-]

I think assertions of higher status can sometimes be characterized as justifiable or even desirable. Eliezer does this all the time. The alternative to "stating disagreement while failing to address the details of the argument," is often to ignore the comment altogether. (Also, see edit to my previous comment before replying further.)

Comment author: komponisto 03 February 2010 06:37:57PM 0 points [-]

Well, if you agree with me about that particular comment, maybe it would have been preferable to wait for an occasion where you actually disagreed with my judgment to make this point?

(This would help cut down on "fake disagreements", i.e. disagreements arising out of misunderstanding.)

Comment author: MichaelBishop 03 February 2010 06:49:53PM 1 point [-]

Agreed.

Comment author: MrHen 03 February 2010 06:06:27PM 0 points [-]

I think the manner in which komponisto was calling Eliezer a moral relativist deserves a more thorough answer. If I make an off-handed remark and someone disagrees with me, I find an off-handed remark fair. If I spend three paragraphs and get, "No," as a response I will be annoyed.

In this case, I side with komponisto.

Comment author: TheAncientGeek 29 May 2014 03:12:29PM *  0 points [-]

Not ndividual level relativism, or not group level relativism?

Comment author: Kevin 01 February 2010 04:56:11AM *  -1 points [-]

As I understand the common understanding, moral relativist commonly means not believing in absolute morality, which I think is pretty much all of us.