Second---as I've said many times, I believe that the most plausible candidates for the "fabric of the Universe" are mathematical structures like arithmetic. And as I've said many times, obviously I can't prove this. The best I can do is explain why I find it so plausible, which I've tried to do in my book. If those arguments don't move you, well, so be it. I've never claimed they were definitive.
Right, I've explained before why your arguments are in error. We can talk more about that some other time.
Third--you seem to think (unless I've misread you) that this vision of the Universe is crucial to my point about Dawkins.
No, I accept that they're separate errors.
Fourth---Here is my point about Dawkins; it would be helpful to know which part(s) you consider the locus of our disagreement:
Okay:
a) the natural numbers---whether or not you buy my vision of them as the basis of reality---are highly complex by any reasonable definition (I am talking here about the actual standard model of the natural numbers, not some axiomatic system that partly describes them);
If what you describe here is what you mean by both "the natural numbers" and "the actual standard model of the natural numbers", then I will accept this definition for the purposes of argument, but that, using it consistently, it doesn't have the properties you claim.
b) Dawkins has said, repeatedly, that all complexity---not just physical complexity, not just biological complexity, but all complexity---must evolve from something simpler. And indeed, his argument needs this statement in all its generality, because his argument makes no special assumption that would restrict us to physics or biology. It's an argument about the nature of complexity itself.
Disagree with this. Dawkins has been referring to existing complexity in the universe and the context of every related statement confirms this. But even accepting it, the rest of your argument still doesn't follow.
d) The natural numbers did not evolve from something simpler. Therefore Dawkins's argument can't be right.
Disagree. Again, let's keep the same definition throughout. Recall what you said the natural numbers were:
the actual standard model of the natural numbers
The model arose from something simpler (like basic human cognition of counting of objects). The Map Is Not The Territory.
Ah, but now I know what you're going to say: you meant the sort of Platonic-space model of those natural numbers, that exists independently of whatever's in our universe, has always been complex.
So, if you assume (like theists) that there's some sort of really-existing realm, outside of the universe, that always has been, and is complex, then you can prove that ... there's a complexity that has always existed. Which is circular.
Silas: I agree that if arithmetic is a human invention, then my counterexample goes away.
If I've read you correctly, you believe that arithmetic is a human invention, and therefore reject the counterexample.
On that reading, a key locus of our disagreement is whether arithmetic is a human invention. I think the answer is clearly no, for reasons I've written about so extensively that I'd rather not rehash them here.
I'm not sure, though, that I've read you correctly, because you occasionally say things like "The Map Is Not The Territory" wh...
A monthly thread for posting rationality-related quotes you've seen recently (or had stored in your quotesfile for ages).
ETA: It would seem that rationality quotes are no longer desired. After several days this thread stands voted into the negatives. Wolud whoever chose to to downvote this below 0 would care to express their disapproval of the regular quotes tradition more explicitly? Or perhaps they may like to browse around for some alternative posts that they could downvote instead of this one? Or, since we're in the business of quotation, they could "come on if they think they're hard enough!"