Alicorn comments on Babies and Bunnies: A Caution About Evo-Psych - Less Wrong

52 Post author: Alicorn 22 February 2010 01:53AM

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Comment author: Alicorn 24 February 2010 10:55:44PM 0 points [-]

Does anyone know how to contact this blogger so I can correct em on my gender?!

Comment author: CronoDAS 25 February 2010 07:39:50PM 4 points [-]

Wow, that's quite a discussion thread that's hanging below this comment; interesting, but completely unrelated to the top-level post. I want to jump in with a few words about anger but I'm completely at a loss as to where to put them.

Anyway, said blogger has now changed his post.

Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 26 February 2010 04:00:07AM 6 points [-]
Comment author: RobinZ 26 February 2010 04:09:22AM 2 points [-]
Comment author: Kevin 26 February 2010 06:56:18AM 2 points [-]

Go go feminism police!

Comment author: Alicorn 26 February 2010 04:19:35AM 0 points [-]

Thank you!

Comment author: Wei_Dai 26 February 2010 10:02:50AM 1 point [-]

Why did Eliezer tell everyone here about another blogger who doesn't care enough about Alicorn to find out and use her preferred pronoun, instead of, say, just contacting that blogger directly? And why did people vote it up? Do they want to see more instances of such lack of caring to be reported here? I think I'm missing something here...

Comment author: ciphergoth 26 February 2010 10:34:11AM 5 points [-]

The blog post is of independent interest aside from the gender mixup.

Comment author: Wei_Dai 26 February 2010 10:58:43AM 0 points [-]

Ah, thanks. I guess my brain was so primed to think about the gender mixup that I missed the obvious.

Comment author: wedrifid 26 February 2010 10:10:03AM 3 points [-]

Do they want to see more instances of such lack of caring to be reported here? I think I'm missing something here...

I found the mere fact that a lesswrong post got that much external reference was interesting.

I don't think my personal vote should be taken as support of any 'lack of caring' about Alicorn, as that is not an inference I have made about the state of the mind of the blogger based on the evidence available. That is, I reject the framing of the question.

Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 26 February 2010 03:15:27PM 3 points [-]

I think I'm missing something here...

Er... a sense of humor? I regret only that I didn't get to see the look on her face in person, but I was kind of hoping for an AAAAAAAHHH in reply.

Comment author: Alicorn 26 February 2010 04:53:48PM 7 points [-]

Oh, I didn't realize my frustration was so entertaining. Should I stop exhibiting it, to create better incentives?

Comment author: ciphergoth 26 February 2010 06:28:36PM *  4 points [-]

While I generally get pissed off when people find my frustration entertaining, I'm not sure that's the correct inference here. I can be amused by my friends frustration in a way that, far from diminishing my sympathy for them, is actually borne of it. This is part of what amuses us about the Bill Hicks of this world.

Comment author: thomblake 26 February 2010 06:13:03PM 0 points [-]

Perhaps you should at least stop exhibiting it so amusingly. Lately it's sounded like something out of Peanuts.

Comment author: ciphergoth 26 February 2010 06:21:03PM *  8 points [-]

I think we should steer a lot further from high-school tropes. Right now you seem a whisker away from grabbing her stuff, offering it back to her, then throwing it to a mate when she reaches for it. I don't think that's exactly the atmosphere we're aiming for, do you?

Comment author: SilasBarta 26 February 2010 06:30:16PM *  2 points [-]

Agreed, and voted up.

With that said, note that the scienceblogs author and most of the commenters were female, and didn't make the inference, "alicorn = unicorn-related = probably female".

Comment author: Alicorn 26 February 2010 06:13:50PM 1 point [-]

What would be a clear, non-amusing, ideally empathy-inspiring expression of frustration?

Comment author: Kevin 27 February 2010 03:53:34AM 2 points [-]

A :( probably wouldn't hurt

Comment author: Alicorn 27 February 2010 03:54:29AM *  10 points [-]

People keep mistaking my gender and it makes me sad :(

Comment author: JoshuaZ 12 March 2011 04:05:34PM 8 points [-]

I'm a little curious why you care so much about people getting your gender correct online.

Speaking personally, I generally use my actual name in my screen name which to native English speakers shows my gender clearly. But even then, some non-native speakers see a name ending in "a" and apparently conclude that that's female.

Also, I have a very high-pitch voice for a male, so I regularly get mistaken for a female over the phone. But this isn't really that annoying except when it becomes an actual inconvenience (as in "I'm sorry ma'am, but I need to speak to your husband about this." and then refusing to believe that they really are speaking to Joshua Zelinsky).

So I'm curious why this preference issue is one that you place so much emphasis on.

Comment author: Dufaer 01 March 2010 10:01:48PM 6 points [-]

How is it even reasonable to expect some arbitrarily visitor to notice (or guess correctly) your gender?

Do you evaluate your writing style or your expressed thoughts to be so typically female as to yield to no other conclusion? Or do you count on the “obvious” connotations of a name like “Alicorn” - for it is surely obvious that anyone naming oneself thus must be thinking about some fluffy, girly sparkling unicorn instead of, for example, making a reference to the Invisible Pink Unicorn - or something (especially on a rationality website!).

There is no personal information on the user pages here on LS, and decidedly no gender marks on top of the posts themselves. Also, you are obviously not willing to provide any info to make you identifiable in RL and yet expect all people to infer that you are female anyway, even given the prior probability distribution (“there are no girls on the internet”, “a contributor on some intellectual/academia website”)?

Even when one does not think of people on the internet strictly as male, it is simply usually a better guess to refer to them as “he”, given that i) one is unwilling to use “he/she” or a similarly artificial form, and ii) there is no other information one is willing to look up.

Thus I conclude that as long as you do not change your nickname into something like “Alicorn(female!)” or change your expectations, you will be sad like this time and time again. [ :( ]

Comment author: Raemon 14 March 2011 01:49:16AM *  1 point [-]

I think it's an unfortunate but inescapable fact that people are unlikely to assume a given poster on a rationality site is female unless said poster has an obviously-female-name (and honestly, I don't think "Alicorn" counts. I had no idea what it meant until you explained).

But I AM genuinely offended by the Isgoria blogger proclaiming that male pronouns were "neutral", even when applied to a specific person. I'm not sure it was the optimal use of my time given the year old status of this discussion, but I sent an e-mail saying so. It gave me warm fuzzies, at least.

I think the male bias in the english language is a ridiculously obvious problem, and I am extremely frustrated whenever a someone says "hey, it'd be cool if you made a small effort to use gender neutral language" and the response is "dude, what's YOUR problem?"

(Originally I used male pronouns to refer to the Isgoria blogger, then realized I didn't actually know for sure. I'm 90% sure the blogger is male, and I don't think it's necessarily wrong to guess someone's gender wrong. But it also didn't take much effort to avoid the use of pronouns in the first place, and if we had an official actually neutral pronoun it wouldn't have been an issue.)

Comment author: Bugmaster 22 October 2012 06:19:47PM -1 points [-]

I mistook your gender as well, initially. In my defence, I had no idea what "Alicorn" meant, except that it sounded like "Unicorn". Unicorns are male more often than not, and the word "Unicorn" is male-gendered in my native language, which tipped my gender assignment all the way toward "male".

My point is, the people who are mistaking your gender may not be making any assumptions about you. They may just be making assumptions about unicorns.

Comment author: Rain 25 February 2010 04:56:23PM *  7 points [-]

Edit: this comment has been rewritten; please see wnoise's comment below for original context.

I feel that the topic of gender identity is not as important as this discussion and others like it on LW seem to make it. In a text based environment, using pseudonyms, we are genderless until we reveal ourselves. And unless we intend to employ mating signals between posters here, it has little relevance even after it has been revealed.

I have operated for years in communities where the gender of participants is highly relevant, but where there were taboos against attempts to discover true genders (online, text-based roleplaying). In such environments, I've developed a severe lack of concern for the topic at large, and instead read what the person has to say and contribute without a gender filter. Many times, I don't even read the name of a poster except as a pattern that allows me to place the comment in context with those around it.

Alicorn's focus on gender identity has, several times now, generated very large discussion threads and at least one top level post. I do not understand why this is accepted by the rest of the LW community as important and relevant to the topic of rationality.

Comment author: Kevin 25 February 2010 06:02:52PM *  10 points [-]

It's because we want more women to post here so we need to listen to Alicorn and keep her happy!!! We respect her opinions. Diversity is good. If we can't keep Alicorn happy, we're generally screwed as far as attracting (and subsequently not alienating) more women to this site.

See Eliezer's post on this topic. http://lesswrong.com/lw/13j/of_exclusionary_speech_and_gender_politics/

Comment author: V_V 23 October 2012 09:20:40PM *  0 points [-]

Being non-anglo-saxon, I'm in a minority here. So you need to listen to me and keep me happy!!! You have to respect my opinions. Diversity is good. If you can't keep me happy, you're generally screwed as far as attracting (and subsequently not alienating) more non-anglo-saxons to this site.

Comment author: Kevin 23 October 2012 09:31:37PM -1 points [-]

Are you happy?

Comment author: komponisto 25 February 2010 06:08:12PM 5 points [-]

Alicorn's focus on gender identity

I don't perceive Alicorn as "focusing" on "gender identity". I perceive Alicorn as getting annoyed when people (out of carelessness) get her gender identity wrong.

Comment author: Rain 25 February 2010 06:14:52PM *  11 points [-]

Annoyance is one thing, and I have no problem with it; expressing that annoyance in such a way as to fuel a 118 post thread (and growing) on the topic in an otherwise unrelated article is what I disagree with.

Comment author: [deleted] 23 October 2012 08:26:44PM 1 point [-]

Surely if the thread's grown unwieldy, that's not simply because Alicorn expressed her annoyance? There's a whole bunch of other people involved here, whose contribution matters even if it all stems off of one of her comments.

Comment author: Rain 25 February 2010 05:13:57PM 3 points [-]

If you downvoted this comment, please explain why you feel that the topic of gender identity is so important as to merit top level posts and long discussions in many other posts.

Comment author: wnoise 25 February 2010 05:29:12PM 2 points [-]

I have not downvoted it. But the original phrasing "You are too focused on the topic of gender identity; I suggest that the topic is not nearly so worthy of concern." differs from the one here in that it suggests concern to oneself, rather than the concern to the community that this post makes clear. The first is telling other people what they should be concerned with, violating a clear norm, and helping no one.

Comment author: brazil84 25 February 2010 05:50:32PM 2 points [-]

I didn't downvote your comment; I think you actually make an interesting point.

For me, it's not just that people obsess over issues of gender (and race, and sexual preference). It's that their gender (or race) sometimes becomes like the team they are on and (arguably) warps their views.

For example, let's suppose you did a poll and asked people if they think women should have the right to vote. I'm pretty confident that the percentage which says "yes" would be higher among women than among men. So it seems likely that peoples' group membership colors their judgments.

Comment author: Kevin 25 February 2010 06:00:22PM *  0 points [-]

I downvoted it. This was already discussed in depth on the site a while ago. See the fall-out posts and discussion related to the PUA stuff (googling for PUA site:lesswrong.com should give you most of it) Basically, the answer to your statement (and then some!) is contained in that thousands of words worth of discussion, and I thought your comment was little more than being a likely trigger for a discussion that's already been beaten into the ground here, even though that wasn't your intention and your intention was in fact exactly opposite.

I will state that summarizing this discussion for postery's sake (in the wiki) so we can stop having it is a good idea.

Comment author: Rain 25 February 2010 06:07:08PM *  4 points [-]

Yes, I read those discussions, and those posts, which is why I'm surprised it's still generating threads this large on unrelated articles.

When reading, I noticed that this particular thread had a button labeled "load more comments (106 replies)", and that struck me as very wrong for a comment I would have labeled "off-topic" at best.

Comment author: MugaSofer 09 November 2012 12:08:50PM 0 points [-]

I didn't downvote, but considering that many people are confused about gender identity, applying rationality to it seems a reasonable topic for posting here.

Comment author: [deleted] 23 October 2012 08:38:29PM 0 points [-]

Pragmatically: It's important because the fact that this keeps coming up again and again suggests it's not going to go away just because it's annoying to many when it happens, and a mechanism to channel, redirect or settle the matter in the form of community norms hasn't yet been found. Meanwhile, there's clearly people who find it relevant, both to their participation in LW and not infrequently to life experiences that have bearing on what they can contribute to refining the art of rationality. Some of those people are major contributors here; some of them may still be lurking. Some of them haven't even found te site yet. A global norm that rejects the topic altogether seems like a great path to evaporative cooling in an area where LW has real potential for PR issues, and which may be a long-term impediment to its success. Restricting the topic to Discussion only (regardless of the potential quality of the post and ensuing discussion) or attempting to limit the length of threads directly seems like a bad idea.

You can always downvote it if you don't want to see it.

Comment author: thomblake 25 February 2010 05:59:04PM *  0 points [-]

Alicorn's focus on gender identity has, several times now, generated very large discussion threads and at least one top level post. I do not understand why this is accepted by the rest of the LW community as important and relevant to the topic of rationality.

Questions of appropriate standards for our community are on-topic to a limited extent. If you disagree, please refrain from making comments like this one, on pain of contradiction.

Comment author: Rain 25 February 2010 06:33:40PM *  3 points [-]

As pointed out by Kevin, this discussion has been had several times before on LW, and community norms should have already been established, in which case continued large threads on the topic are likely unproductive.

I also do not see why contradiction should be painful.

Comment author: thomblake 25 February 2010 07:08:43PM *  1 point [-]

I also do not see why contradiction should be painful.

I can't tell if you meant this humorously, so I'll take it as a serious statement of confusion...

"On pain of X" is an idiom in English which roughly means, "or else you will experience X", where X is something bad.

example

Comment author: Rain 25 February 2010 07:41:14PM *  0 points [-]

I would categorize it as 10 percent humor, 60 percent temporary interest in the vague threat implied by the "don't do this... or else" definition and why that context was appropriate when applied to the topic of contradiction, and 30 percent etymological interest, as I have "on pain of death" as the most-associated thought when hearing the phrase (Google agrees, with that as the top suggestion to complete "on pain of"), and was curious as to how the permutation may have originated.

ETA: I disagree with the sentiment that contradiction is a negative, undesirable, or potentially painful event; instead, I view it as an opportunity to update maps, assuming that the contradiction is supported by the weight of the evidence.

Comment author: komponisto 26 February 2010 01:10:58AM *  3 points [-]

"Pain" in this expression means "penalty". Though I haven't looked it up to confirm, I'm pretty confident the word "pain" itself comes from Latin poena via French peine, meaning just that.

(The first time I heard this idiom, the phrase was "on pain of imprisonment".)

Comment author: wedrifid 24 February 2010 11:15:56PM 1 point [-]

How on earth did he get 'he' from 'Alicorn'?

Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 25 February 2010 02:28:26AM *  8 points [-]

I've gotten 'she' from 'Eliezer Yudkowsky' no less.

Interestingly, over the course of some time monitoring blog trackbacks for Overcoming Bias, I never saw Robin Hanson mistaken for a female Robin.

So... um... I realize that this isn't really what the whole point is about at all, but I didn't feel particularly insulted to be called a girl; what does it say about your opinion of men that you're insulted to be mistaken for male? :)

(And yes, I know, it probably wouldn't be annoying if it was only happening to you personally and no one else, it's the background social assumptions that are annoying.)

Comment author: Sniffnoy 25 February 2010 07:52:06AM 8 points [-]

I automatically assumed Yvain was female for a while, because the name looks like "Yvonne".

Comment author: RichardKennaway 25 February 2010 08:54:20AM 2 points [-]
Comment author: h-H 01 March 2010 03:10:40AM 0 points [-]

that was interesting, and there was I thinking of alicorn as male and yvain as female, shuks..

Comment author: [deleted] 25 February 2010 04:48:06AM *  4 points [-]

Am I mistaken for female on here because of my username often, I wonder. It does look like it has the word "gal" embedded in it. Darn orthography not reflecting pronunciation.

(The pronunciation is /ˈwɔrɨɡl̩/ in IPA, uorygl in Lojban. Also, it took me ages to figure out a way to get the word "female" within five words of the beginning of that sentence.)

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 13 March 2011 12:58:19PM 2 points [-]

It's easy for me to see your name as Warriorgal.

Comment author: RobinZ 25 February 2010 05:02:40AM 1 point [-]

I believe I was agnostic on the question, for one.

Comment author: mattnewport 25 February 2010 02:29:02AM 2 points [-]

Is that from someone reading it as 'Eliza'?

Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 25 February 2010 02:39:30AM *  0 points [-]

No clue hath I, though your suggestion seems plausible enough.

Comment author: Alicorn 25 February 2010 03:42:12AM *  1 point [-]

It says nothing about my opinion of men (I think) - it just signifies to me that the person so profoundly does not even care. I don't want to be talked about without being considered. This is probably more of a pet peeve for me than for others. It would still be annoying even if it never happened to anyone else.

Comment author: Vladimir_Nesov 25 February 2010 09:17:56AM 9 points [-]

It says nothing about my opinion of men (I think) - it just signifies to me that the person so profoundly does not even care.

It also signifies that you care a lot, more than is normally expected, and so more than people normally adjust their behavior to accommodate.

Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 25 February 2010 01:17:33PM *  8 points [-]

What did the person who mistook me for a woman not care about with respect to me? What were they not considering about me that constitutes disrespect to me? If it's not an annoying social background assumption then I genuinely don't understand what's so terrible about this.

Comment author: RobinZ 25 February 2010 01:24:54PM *  3 points [-]

Do you remember whoever-it-was that was talking about not having the kind of attachment to sexual identity that other people claimed? (She - I believe it was she - mentioned that she would be more likely to report but not as emotionally traumatized by rape.)

I think this is an inverse of this. Some people - me, for example - are unperturbed by being assigned the wrong gender. Not everyone.

Comment author: arundelo 25 February 2010 02:12:26PM 2 points [-]
Comment author: wedrifid 25 February 2010 09:28:28AM *  5 points [-]

it just signifies to me that the person so profoundly does not even care.

About gender pronouns, your gender, gender politics in general or something more esoteric?

Comment author: Alicorn 25 February 2010 06:04:20PM *  1 point [-]

About me.

In person, I'm fairly obviously girl-shaped. No one has ever made this mistake when interacting with me in person, and I don't have to do Obvious Girl Things™ to get that accuracy - don't have to swish around in crinoline, don't have to conveniently quote third parties who refer to me as "she", don't have to carry my purse everywhere I go, or even say my name (which is a girls' name). People don't assume based on where I am or what I'm doing or how surprising it would be for me to be a girl before they figure out that I am one anyway and pronoun me accordingly.

And - in person, when people can't tell what gender someone is, they don't guess, unless they feel able to rely on visual cues or maybe being married to someone of a known gender (and when they are wrong they are mortified). People will bend over backwards to avoid using the wrong pronoun for someone who's in the room with them. They'll ask third parties or construct their sentences to avoid making the assumption or learn the person's name to get a clue. It's just not socially acceptable to get it wrong.

Online, people feel free to guess, and on the geeky parts of the Internet I frequent this is most likely to affect women negatively. (I also frequent various anti-prejudice parts of the Internet, but there a) I generally lurk and b) under the circumstances they take the trouble to be careful about that sort of thing!)

Now, I recognize this disparity is because it's considered insulting to say that someone looks like the opposite gender, and not so with writing like the opposite gender... except that when people talk about third parties one of them knows in person and the other doesn't, the one who doesn't know doesn't casually hurl pronoun caution to the wind even though someone is right there to correct them should they be wrong without any implications about anyone's looks having been made. When there is a mechanism to find out a real person's gender, it gets taken advantage of. With real people, you don't guess, you find out, and if you're wrong, that's not okay.

Getting my gender wrong when it would have been pretty easy to get it right (for crying out loud, ask me! Or someone else! Or do the most cursory of searches for "alicorn gender" on this very site - it's in the second result!) signifies that I am not a "real person" in the above sense. It's okay to guess. It doesn't matter if you get it wrong. He won't care, and if she does, it's about eir politics or something dismissible like that, not about whether you took four seconds to fact-check. Not about identity, or consideration, or the fact that this happens about once a week and the blogger, unlike most people who make the mistake, doesn't even have a way for me to correct em.

Comment author: Wei_Dai 26 February 2010 01:49:53AM 10 points [-]

It seems somewhat unreasonable to get so upset over the fact that a random person on the Internet doesn't care about you. I wonder what you think about this quote from my post The Nature of Offense:

On the other side of this interaction, we should consider the possibility that our offensiveness sense may be tuned too sensitively, perhaps for an ancestral environment where mass media didn’t exist and any offense might reasonably be considered both personal and intentional.

But I admit that I'm still quite confused about the proper relationship between rationality, values, and emotions. "Too sensitively" above makes some sense to me intuitively, but if someone asks "too sensitive compared to what?" then I can't really give an answer. I'd be interested in any insights you (or anyone else) might have.

Comment author: Alicorn 26 February 2010 02:09:00AM 1 point [-]

I wouldn't mind if the person had chosen not to blog about me at all. But having made the choice to a) blog about my article and b) couch this entry in terms of what puzzles me, etc., not checking up on my gender places the entire thing in a sort of uncanny valley of care. The blogger basically tried to order up my content a la carte, and there is a limit to how modular my contents are.

Comment author: Unknowns 26 February 2010 10:24:48AM 6 points [-]

I tend to agree with Wei Dai, and it seems to me that your analogy between the way people behave on the internet and the way people behave in person is flawed. To illustrate this:

The internet behavior in question: the blogger didn't care enough about you to find out your gender, but did care enough about what you said to comment on it, also not realizing that you would read the blog post.

Real world behavior that would be actually analogous: two men (more likely to be uncaring) are walking down a street in a large city. Two other persons pass them, walking in the other direction and speaking with one another. The two men overhear something, but it is difficult for them to be sure of the gender of the two persons. Then, one of the two men comments to the other on what they overheard. He uses whatever gender pronoun seems to him slightly more likely, even while knowing that there is a good chance he is wrong, and he doesn't care.

Note the real analogy here: the two men don't care about the two persons they pass, but are interested in what they overhear, and so say something about it. They have no reason to expect that the persons will hear what they say, so, in their view, it doesn't matter whether they are right or not.

Of course, people may well underestimate the probability that other people will read blog posts about them, so maybe they should be more careful.

Comment author: wedrifid 26 February 2010 10:35:45AM 3 points [-]

I tend to agree with Wei Dai, and it seems to me that your analogy between the way people behave on the internet and the way people behave in person is flawed.

The other difference when calling a 'she' a he' in real life is: If you can actually see her with your eyes and you call her a 'he' then it probably means you haven't noticed her breasts, don't consider her facial features to be differentiated and don't even have a polite, respectful appreciation for her feminine form. That makes the situation extremely embarrassing for both parties.

Comment author: andreas 26 February 2010 02:09:10AM *  0 points [-]

"Too sensitively" above makes some sense to me intuitively, but if someone asks "too sensitive compared to what?" then I can't really give an answer.

Too sensitive compared to how you would want to feel if you knew more about your preferences (how low worlds rank where the offense was made) and more about what the world is like, e.g. the state of mind of those making the perceived offense?

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 13 March 2011 12:56:43PM 1 point [-]

And - in person, when people can't tell what gender someone is, they don't guess, unless they feel able to rely on visual cues or maybe being married to someone of a known gender (and when they are wrong they are mortified). People will bend over backwards to avoid using the wrong pronoun for someone who's in the room with them. They'll ask third parties or construct their sentences to avoid making the assumption or learn the person's name to get a clue. It's just not socially acceptable to get it wrong.

I'm pretty sure that's a function of where you hang out.

My impression is that transgendered people have a hard time getting their choices taken seriously in most social circles.

Comment author: [deleted] 23 October 2012 04:25:57AM *  1 point [-]

Your impression is accurate. It's frequently an issue in gatherings of trans people, let alone in mixed groups or majority-cis spaces.

Comment author: Bindbreaker 24 February 2010 11:26:14PM *  3 points [-]

The user name "Alicorn" seems gender-indeterminate to me.

Comment author: Unknowns 25 February 2010 07:22:54AM 5 points [-]

Maybe, but I certainly assumed she was female the first time I heard the name, and I had never heard it before... maybe associations with Alice or Allison or whatever. Anyway it sure seems determinately female to me.

Comment author: Bindbreaker 25 February 2010 09:52:42AM 1 point [-]

Ali can be short for several female names, but it can also be a male name.

Comment author: Kevin 25 February 2010 11:02:51AM 2 points [-]

This is a cultural norm kind of thing, but in the cultural norms where Alicorn chose her name, I think it really was intended to be a feminine username. I think women do have a tendency to try and choose somewhat feminine usernames, because otherwise a lot of the time on the internet they will be mistaken for men which gets annoying quickly.

I think something that would allow us to definitely solve this problem is profile pictures (which don't have to be your actual picture) or user profiles.

Comment author: komponisto 25 February 2010 05:51:19PM *  7 points [-]

I think something that would allow us to definitely solve this problem is profile pictures (which don't have to be your actual picture) or user profiles.

User profiles good, pictures bad.

Frankly, the "problem" here really isn't very hard to solve: just don't assume you know a person's sex unless you actually know it!

Comment author: wnoise 25 February 2010 05:39:57PM 1 point [-]

I think women do have a tendency to try and choose somewhat feminine usernames, because otherwise a lot of the time on the internet they will be mistaken for men which gets annoying quickly.

This is undoubtedly the case. However, the opposite choice is also quite popular -- choosing masculine usernames to avoid being harassed for being female.

Comment author: Kevin 25 February 2010 05:17:41AM 5 points [-]

I assume that is without knowing that the word "alicorn" is related to unicorns? Or are you not confident enough in females liking unicorns much more so than males to be able to give a probability estimate?

When I once wasn't sure about Alicorn's gender, I googled "alicorn", saw alicorn was a word related to unicorns and assigned a 95% probability then that Alicorn was female, which was confirmed by seeing someone refer to her as she on here.

Comment author: Blueberry 25 February 2010 07:00:02AM 4 points [-]

That's a 95% female probability, even accounting for the fact that LW is mostly male? You're amazingly confident that female persons like unicorns much more, considering that unicorns have a huge sharp pointy phallic weapon sticking out of their foreheads.

Comment author: mattnewport 25 February 2010 07:07:43AM 9 points [-]

That's 95% confidence that the username would be picked by a female. Not at all the same thing as a 95% confidence that a person who likes unicorns is female. You are ignoring the fact that picking such a username is a powerful signal (to people who know what it means). I think unicorns are kind of cool but that doesn't mean I would pick a username that references unicorns.

Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 25 February 2010 01:08:51PM *  0 points [-]

"Alicorn" sounds much more feminine than either "Unicorn" or "Aliborn".

Comment author: wedrifid 25 February 2010 09:41:52AM 5 points [-]

You're amazingly confident that female persons like unicorns much more, considering that unicorns have a huge sharp pointy phallic weapon sticking out of their foreheads.

I sold my unicorn when I realized why the guys would never believe my locker-room stories of sexual conquest.

Comment author: Bindbreaker 25 February 2010 05:35:58AM 1 point [-]

Yup-- didn't know "alicorn" was a word.

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 13 March 2011 11:36:43AM 2 points [-]

Alicorn ends with a consonant. This doesn't guarantee that it will be seen as male, but I think it increases the odds.

Comment author: V_V 23 October 2012 09:26:25PM 1 point [-]

How in the earth did you get 'he' from 'Sharon'?

Comment author: wedrifid 24 October 2012 01:25:48AM 2 points [-]

How in the earth did you get 'he' from 'Sharon'?

I have no idea how the Wedrifid from nearly three years ago selected 'he'. It doesn't seem the kind of detail one would encode indefinitely in long term memory.

Comment author: gwern 23 October 2012 10:58:45PM 0 points [-]

The last prominent world leader of that name was male, I believe.

Comment author: V_V 24 October 2012 01:16:00AM 2 points [-]

You mean Ariel Sharon? That is his last name (which he actually chose himself. He was born Ariel Scheinermann, then he changed it to Sharon, probably because Scheinermann sounded too much German).

In fairness, his given name Ariel sound femmine to me, thanks to a certain cartoon character, but according to Hebrew grammar it's actually a male name and it literally means 'Lion of God'. Blame ignorant Disney.

Comment author: ArisKatsaris 24 October 2012 12:57:55PM *  0 points [-]

Shakespeare's "Ariel" (from the Tempest) is also often depicted as a female character (though originally referred to as a male character). This graph does seem to imply however that its popularity as a female name may have been indeed influenced by Disney.

Comment author: gwern 24 October 2012 01:57:41AM 0 points [-]

I forgot that Ariel sounds female, too. I don't know if that undermines or reinforces my point!

Comment author: [deleted] 24 October 2012 01:00:12PM 0 points [-]

BTW, that Sharon was pronounced with a stress on the second syllable, whereas the feminine first name has a stress on the first syllable. (Similarly, if I read that someone's first name is Andrea I can't tell whether they are male or female unless I know where they come from, but if I hear it pronounced I can.)

Comment author: shminux 23 October 2012 11:46:08PM *  -1 points [-]

"Last names don't encode gender" -- Claude Shannon

Comment author: gwern 24 October 2012 12:23:18AM 0 points [-]

If one fails to invoke System 2 processing and reflect that world leaders are rarely known by their first names (assuming one even realizes that that example is where the 'Sharon may be male' thought is coming from), then they certainly do.

Comment author: Alicorn 24 February 2010 11:19:35PM *  0 points [-]

I don't know how it keeps happening. How did you get "he" from the blog post? (Or is it indicated somewhere else?)

Comment author: wedrifid 24 February 2010 11:51:43PM *  3 points [-]

How did you get "he" from the blog post?

It (she) was a girl it is highly unlikely that (she) would have made the mistake. Apart from defaulting to writing 'she', she would have blogged since 2003 and would have had her own identity confused more than once.

But mostly I fell back on my prior for people who write blogs on these topics:

Isegoria - From the ancient Greek, equality in freedom of speech; an eclectic mix of thoughts on Policy, War, Economics, Business, Technology, Science, Fitness, Martial Arts, and more

This prior screens off my more general prior for the sex of bloggers in general. Beyond that I have a prior for the types of signalling that I expect to find humans engaging in based on their respective reproductive motivations.

At what odds would you bet against me if I was betting that the blogger in question was male?

Comment author: Alicorn 24 February 2010 11:55:08PM 2 points [-]

Oh, the blogger is probably male. But from eir perspective, so was I: I blogged about "refining the art of human rationality" and ey could have been ever-so-responsibly screening off priors and making eir best guess and ey was wrong and I am pissed off. So, I decline to do the same thing.

Comment author: wedrifid 25 February 2010 12:03:29AM *  7 points [-]

Meanwhile I find 'ey' just irritating so my approach is to sometimes just avoid pronouns while other times I randomly generate pronouns based on my prediction, biased towards 0.5. I don't recall being dramatically mistaken thus far and seem to have a reasonably good track record for guessing right based on writing style. At least, that is, in cases where I get later confirmation.

Comment author: RobinZ 25 February 2010 12:05:00AM 8 points [-]

The singular they has a long and illustrious history. I know I've said it four or five times in the recent comments, but that's what I'd recommend.

Comment author: wedrifid 25 February 2010 12:16:52AM 2 points [-]

Really? I use 'they' quire frequenly but feel bad every time. I'll stop feeling bad now. Thanks. ;)

Comment author: RobinZ 25 February 2010 12:28:00AM 0 points [-]

Glad to be of service!

Comment author: Alicorn 25 February 2010 12:05:08AM *  1 point [-]

I'm sorry you find "ey" irritating; I promise not to refer to you a la Spivak. And I'm glad you're good at detecting gender from writing style. And someday you may piss someone off very badly.

Comment author: mattnewport 25 February 2010 12:36:00AM 10 points [-]

It doesn't appear to have occurred to you that some people find Spivak pronouns very annoying. They annoy me immensely because it feels like someone is deliberately obstructing my reading in an uncomfortable way to make some kind of political point almost entirely unrelated to the context of the post itself. I usually just stop reading and go elsewhere to calm down.

Comment author: Alicorn 25 February 2010 12:38:24AM 0 points [-]

I promise not to refer to you with Spivak pronouns either.

"I don't know what gender the person I'm talking about is and wouldn't care to get it wrong" is not a political point, though.

Comment author: mattnewport 25 February 2010 12:43:15AM 8 points [-]

It's not me being referred to with them that bothers me, it is them being used at all. I find it difficult and uncomfortable to read, like trying to read 1337 5p34k, and it breaks my reading flow in an unpleasant way. It's like bad grammar or spelling but with the additional knowledge that someone is doing it deliberately for reasons that I consider political.

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 13 March 2011 12:49:11PM 0 points [-]

Thanks for the detailed description of why you find invented pronouns annoying.

I'm pretty flexible about new words, so I react to invented pronouns as a minor novelty.

I don't know what people who use invented pronouns have in mind-- they could be intending to tweak people, or they could be more like me and generalizing from one example.

Comment author: Dreaded_Anomaly 13 March 2011 04:13:34AM 0 points [-]

I trained myself to use Spivak pronouns in less than a month. As far as lingual/grammatical conventions go, they flow very naturally. Singular "they" does not, because a plural verb does not belong with a singular subject. I find that much more annoying.

Comment author: wnoise 13 March 2011 07:11:31AM 4 points [-]

Dost thou also find the use of "singular you" annoying?

Comment author: TheOtherDave 13 March 2011 05:34:48AM 2 points [-]

You're not the only person I know to make this claim, but I will admit to never having understood it.

That is, I can understand objecting to "If my neighbor visits I'll give them a cookie" because it violates the English grammatical convention that the subject and object must match in quantity -- singular "neighbor" doesn't go with plural "them." I don't have a problem with that, myself, but I accept that some people do.

And I can understand endorsing "If my neighbor visits I'll give em a cookie" despite it violating the English grammatical convention that "em" isn't a pronoun. I don't have a problem with that either.

But doing both at once seems unmotivated. If I'm willing to ignore English grammatical conventions enough to make up new pronouns altogether, I don't see on what grounds I can object to someone else ignoring subject/object matching rules.

Mostly, when people say this sort of thing I understand it to be an aesthetic judgment, on a par with not liking the color blue. Which is fine, as long as they aren't too obnoxious about trying to impose their aesthetic judgments on me.

Comment author: Morendil 13 March 2011 08:53:23AM *  2 points [-]

"The pronoun form 'they' is anaphorically linked in the discourse to 'this person'. Such use of forms of they with singular antecedents is attested in English over hundreds of years, in writers as significant as Chaucer, Shakespeare, Milton, Austen, and Wilde. The people (like the perennially clueless Strunk and White) who assert that such usage is "wrong" simply haven't done their literary homework and don't deserve our attention." (Language Log)

(Examples)

Comment author: RobinZ 25 February 2010 12:05:47AM 3 points [-]

Singular they may be less distracting than Spivak, much as I like the latter.

Comment author: Alicorn 25 February 2010 12:06:49AM 1 point [-]

I use singular "they" sometimes, although I find it makes many sentences awkward, especially if I'm also talking about some plural items or persons.

Comment author: RobinZ 25 February 2010 12:10:30AM 1 point [-]

Fair enough - I only mentioned it because I happened to have a period where I avoided singular-they because I thought it was forbidden. I'll trust your judgement on style.

Comment author: Vladimir_Nesov 24 February 2010 11:47:14PM 2 points [-]

It is a reasonable default assumption, not adjusted with negative effect of a mistake in mind.

Comment author: RobinZ 24 February 2010 11:49:28PM 2 points [-]

But you don't need to invoke a default assumption here - the singular "they" is a perfectly well-established alternative.

Comment author: Alicorn 24 February 2010 11:49:09PM 1 point [-]

As a rule of thumb, it's annoying to be talked about without being considered.

Comment author: Jack 24 February 2010 11:39:13PM 2 points [-]

People at this end of the internet tend to have 'male' as the default gender for everyone.

Comment author: Alicorn 24 February 2010 11:43:13PM 1 point [-]

Yes. It's very annoying.

Comment author: mattnewport 24 February 2010 11:48:47PM 6 points [-]

On average, less annoying than the alternatives.

Comment author: RobinZ 24 February 2010 11:54:51PM 4 points [-]

There are few good reasons to object to the singular they - the usual ones make less sense than objecting to the word "giraffe". Were I writing a style guide for LessWrong...

Comment author: [deleted] 23 October 2012 04:34:41AM 4 points [-]

I find the opposition to singular they baffling -- I don't know who started it, but whoever they are, they have a funny sense of what sounds awkward.

Comment author: Alicorn 24 February 2010 11:49:52PM -1 points [-]

How do you even gauge this? Do you know how annoyed I am on some absolute scale so you can make such a comparison?

Comment author: mattnewport 24 February 2010 11:52:56PM *  4 points [-]

Based on what I think are reasonable assumptions: that it is at least as annoying for a male to be referred to as 'she' as vice-versa, that there are many more males than females posting at lesswrong, that the proportion of gender-indeterminate usernames is roughly equal between men and women.

Historically, 'he' has been more commonly used than 'she' when referring to gender indeterminate individuals in English so it doesn't even necessarily imply any gender assumption.

Comment author: thomblake 25 February 2010 01:45:21PM 7 points [-]

Historically, 'he' has been more commonly used than 'she' when referring to gender indeterminate individuals in English so it doesn't even necessarily imply any gender assumption.

Perhaps interestingly, J.S. Mill tried to argue that "Man" is historically gender-neutral, and so women already have the right to vote in England, since the law refers to "man". He did not win that battle.

Comment author: Jack 25 February 2010 08:29:04PM *  8 points [-]

My understanding is that "man" is historically gender neutral. Old English used wer (wereman) for adult males and wif (wifman) for adult females. Wif is etymologically related to wife and eventually changed into woman (from wimman). Wer got dropped and all we have left of it is "werewolf".

The use of "man" to refer to only adult males is relatively late, like 1000 A.C.E. -ish.

Comment author: ata 01 March 2010 02:21:34PM *  3 points [-]

Historically, 'he' has been more commonly used than 'she' when referring to gender indeterminate individuals in English so it doesn't even necessarily imply any gender assumption.

If you are talking about a hypothetical or gender-unknown person, using "he" will make it much more likely that people will imagine this person as male. How it's historically been used, and even how it's conventionally used now, are irrelevant if we're talking about its actual cognitive effects.

(For what it's worth, I think this is the best exposition of sexist language I've read. It's fascinating (yet not all that surprising) how some commonplace linguistic patterns become immediately and intuitively appalling to most people if they are simply applied to a different personal attribute.)

Comment author: wedrifid 25 February 2010 12:14:22AM 2 points [-]

that it is at least as annoying for a male to be referred to as 'she' as vice-versa

(Probably somewhat more so given that referring to each other as 'girls' is a common form of insult among males given that it asserts traits that while rewarded in females are easy targets of abuse in males.)

Comment author: Alicorn 25 February 2010 12:19:57AM 1 point [-]

You don't think females are socially punished for exhibiting "male" traits, or you think it's comparatively insignificant?

Comment author: RobinZ 25 February 2010 12:03:34AM 3 points [-]

Historically, 'he' has been more commonly used than 'she' when referring to gender indeterminate individuals in English so it doesn't even necessarily imply any gender assumption.

If nothing else, priming would put the lie to that.

Comment author: Alicorn 24 February 2010 11:59:00PM 1 point [-]

that it is at least as annoying for a male to be referred to as 'she' as vice-versa

Probably. But it gets more annoying the more it happens. I have become more annoyed every time it's happened to me. And it happens more to women than it does to men. So this assumption loses validity over time for any given person. And it is just not that hard to avoid guessing!

Historically, 'he' has been more commonly used than 'she' when referring to gender indeterminate individuals in English so it doesn't even necessarily imply any gender assumption.

AAAAAAAAAAAUGH

Ahem. I mean:

No.

Comment author: wedrifid 25 February 2010 12:11:47AM 1 point [-]

AAAAAAAAAAAUGH

Ahem. I mean:

No.

Assuming history to be unswayed by politics and the meaning of common words to be determined by their usage wouldn't this be "Yes. But I vehemently object and anyone using pronouns in this way should be punished with unimaginable hoards of dust specks and furthermore be socially disapproved of"?

I actually think 'AAAAAAAAAAAUGH' fits better! :)

Comment author: Swimmer963 12 March 2011 04:31:32PM 0 points [-]

I think I knew YOU were female... However, I apparently mis-remembered this article as being by Eliezer, and had that in mind when I made my earlier comment about gender links. Maybe because the perspective it takes feels more like the perspectives of my male friends than of my female friends.

Comment author: Unknowns 25 February 2010 08:44:33PM *  0 points [-]

According to the GenderAnalyzer, that blog post was written by a man. I tested your original post as well and it was correctly guessed as being written by a woman.

I tried it on some other pages and if anything the thing is underconfident-- it's right more often than it supposes.

Comment author: arundelo 25 February 2010 09:31:38PM 2 points [-]

[/me googles "GenderAnalyzer" and checks own blog.]

We think http://arundelo.livejournal.com is written by a woman (67%).

Woo-hoo! (I'm male, but it seems to me a bad thing for that to be obvious from my writing.)

Comment author: JGWeissman 25 February 2010 09:40:29PM 4 points [-]

It's probably not fair to the tool to use it on a community blog, but:

lesswrong.com is probably written by a male somewhere between 66-100 years old. The writing style is academic and happy most of the time.

The age result is interesting.

(This is a different web site that uses the same underlying service. It is based on the most recent posts, so the result will likely change over time.)

Comment author: Leafy 25 February 2010 09:40:03PM 0 points [-]

Darn - claims my blog is 63% woman. Not sure how to take that!

Comment author: Unknowns 25 February 2010 09:47:19PM 0 points [-]

These percentages are supposedly Bayesian estimates, so it basically just means that it isn't easy to tell one way or another but the thing was more inclined to take it as female. If the thing is well calibrated it would be right 63% of the time and wrong 37% of the time with this estimate. But at least for my tests it was right even more often-- it seems other people had different experiences.

Comment author: Leafy 25 February 2010 09:55:39PM 0 points [-]

Just clicked through to the following screen after selecting "no - it didn't get it right" to see the resulting poll:

Yes - 63% No - 32% Don't know - 5%

Comment author: Unknowns 26 February 2010 04:08:20AM 0 points [-]

This is based on all the estimates that people have voted on. So it's not strange if it's only getting 63 - 70% correct; it's giving many estimates which are less certain than this.

Comment author: RobinZ 25 February 2010 09:22:44PM 0 points [-]

What was the percentage? The tests I've done have range from 31% to 73% for the correct answer.

Comment author: Unknowns 25 February 2010 09:29:40PM 1 point [-]

I wasn't referring to the total percentage but to ranges: for example when it estimated from 65-75%, it seemed to be wrong 1 in 4 to 1 in 6 times instead of 1 in 3 to 1 in 4. But maybe my sample was still too small.

Comment author: RobinZ 25 February 2010 09:35:25PM 0 points [-]

I'm sorry - I meant the percentage for the blog post and for Alicorn's post.

Comment author: Unknowns 25 February 2010 09:42:44PM 0 points [-]

66% for the blog post, 56% for Alicorn's original post. For this comment : http://lesswrong.com/lw/1ss/babies_and_bunnies_a_caution_about_evopsych/1ofp , it gave 70% female, which is reasonable: it's much more obvious than in the original post (apart from the fact that she says so explicitly which I assume the thing doesn't know.)

Comment author: Alicorn 25 February 2010 10:11:04PM 1 point [-]

My livejournal gets 58% female; my synopsis of my webcomic gets 81% female; and my serial fiction, which I coauthor with another woman, gets 75% female.