Alicorn comments on Babies and Bunnies: A Caution About Evo-Psych - Less Wrong

52 Post author: Alicorn 22 February 2010 01:53AM

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Comment author: Alicorn 24 February 2010 11:59:00PM 1 point [-]

that it is at least as annoying for a male to be referred to as 'she' as vice-versa

Probably. But it gets more annoying the more it happens. I have become more annoyed every time it's happened to me. And it happens more to women than it does to men. So this assumption loses validity over time for any given person. And it is just not that hard to avoid guessing!

Historically, 'he' has been more commonly used than 'she' when referring to gender indeterminate individuals in English so it doesn't even necessarily imply any gender assumption.

AAAAAAAAAAAUGH

Ahem. I mean:

No.

Comment author: wedrifid 25 February 2010 12:11:47AM 1 point [-]

AAAAAAAAAAAUGH

Ahem. I mean:

No.

Assuming history to be unswayed by politics and the meaning of common words to be determined by their usage wouldn't this be "Yes. But I vehemently object and anyone using pronouns in this way should be punished with unimaginable hoards of dust specks and furthermore be socially disapproved of"?

I actually think 'AAAAAAAAAAAUGH' fits better! :)

Comment author: Benquo 12 March 2011 04:01:05PM 2 points [-]

I am not so sure "No" is an indefensible response.

"so it doesn't even necessarily imply any gender assumption." may be a false claim. For example, if you were reading something about a generic, ostensibly nongendered "he", and then a mention of "his wife", I imagine that wouldn't be too jarring. But if instead, say, the text went on to talk about him giving birth, I imagine most people would be a little confused.

So there are some assumptions implicit in the male pronoun.

Comment author: wedrifid 13 March 2011 01:20:12AM *  0 points [-]

"so it doesn't even necessarily imply any gender assumption." may be a false claim. For example, if you were reading something about a generic, ostensibly nongendered "he", and then a mention of "his wife", I imagine that wouldn't be too jarring. But if instead, say, the text went on to talk about him giving birth, I imagine most people would be a little confused.

"Doesn't even necessarily" is different from "appropriate in every possible situation including when the gender is not indeterminate". Matthew's claim was:

Historically, 'he' has been more commonly used than 'she' when referring to gender indeterminate individuals in English so it doesn't even necessarily imply any gender assumption.

If you think that is incorrect, you're just wrong. If you disapprove and are distressed by that historical fact then that is a legitimate position of the kind that can be expressed by vocalized but non verbal expressions of distress.

Comment author: Benquo 13 March 2011 03:54:35AM 1 point [-]

I take the "doesn't even necessarily apply [..]" to be equivalent to the claim that use of the male pronoun is never in itself sufficient to establish some assumption with respect to gender or sex, which claim I disagree with; if the pronoun would be surprising in some circumstances, for reasons of sex or gender, then it carries those connotations everywhere.

Comment author: CuSithBell 13 March 2011 01:48:21AM 0 points [-]

Eh... that's not "necessarily" right. The historical usage of "he" to refer to gender indeterminate individuals doesn't imply that there isn't a necessary (to the extent that that term is meaningful in discussions of this sort) gender assumption in modern usage. In fact, that's the problem - the "indeterminate" individual is by default male (white, middle class, straight, cisgendered, whatevs).

Comment author: wedrifid 13 March 2011 02:51:14AM *  0 points [-]

In fact, that's the problem - the "indeterminate" individual is by default male (white, middle class, straight, cisgendered, whatevs).

Yes, hence the appropriateness of "AAAAAARGH". It is a flaw in the language in an objective effectiveness of conveying information sense. Plus it would piss of Alicorn legitimately.

If you think about it, could be offensive to males too. Why do they get special wordly attention while we get stuck with word that doesn't allow the conveyance of distinct sexual identity while the females can be either? It's a good thing that usage is becoming obsolete ('she' can be used indeterminately too and he less often), otherwise I'd have to care too.

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 13 March 2011 11:40:39AM 1 point [-]

Speaking only for myself here, but in regards to race, I've been moved somewhat from unmarked to marked state (while remaining white, or possibly "white"), and in my experience, being unmarked is a lot more restful.

Comment author: CuSithBell 13 March 2011 05:27:34PM 0 points [-]

I don't understand:

the "indeterminate" individual is by default male

Yes

'he' ... doesn't even necessarily imply any gender assumption

If you think that is incorrect, you're just wrong.

Comment author: Alicorn 25 February 2010 12:21:14AM *  1 point [-]

The probability that anyone would (non-jokingly) refer to me as "he" while knowing (or even strongly suspecting!) that I am in fact female is miniscule; the probability that I am female (even given locally appropriate priors) isn't; and if I were male and known to be so, the probability that I'd be referred to as "he" would approach 1. Referring to someone as "he" constitutes Bayesian evidence to one's audience that the referred-to individual is male. Be not thou casual with the Bayesian evidence.

Comment author: wedrifid 25 February 2010 12:38:36AM -1 points [-]

That is evidence in favor of that usage of pronouns being undesirable for efficient communication of evidence. It doesn't comment particularly on whether or not that particular usage has been traditionally accepted.

I'm not trying to argue with your objection to that kind of usage. I certainly don't consider using 'he' by default any better than using 'she' by default. I think "AAAAAAAAAAUGH" is a valid response. It is just ironically more valid than 'No'.