nolrai comments on Babies and Bunnies: A Caution About Evo-Psych - Less Wrong

52 Post author: Alicorn 22 February 2010 01:53AM

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Comment author: nolrai 25 February 2010 04:44:26PM 2 points [-]

Natural languages are full of ambiguity, and yes that use sounds wrong cause your talking about a particular person.

And if you really wanted to say that it was Chris's money, how about "Chris lost Chris's money." It sounds awkward to me cause my English only allows use of they in the singular if it is an abstract person, not a particular real person.

I mean its not like "Chris lost his money" is unambiguous, it is not at all clear to me weather the he refers to Chris, or someone else. That would probably be clear in discourse because of context.

Comment author: Wei_Dai 26 February 2010 09:42:55AM *  3 points [-]

Do you agree that using 'they' as a singular referring pronoun is not yet a part of natural English (i.e., a majority of English speakers do not naturally use it that way, nor expect it to be used that way), but that usage is being proposed by some as a useful reform, while others oppose it?

My point is that making this change involves a large cost, including a period of confusion as some people start using 'they' as a singular referring pronoun while others are not expecting it to be used that way. And we can foresee that it will increase the amount of ambiguity in English even after this period of confusion is over. Is 'he or she' really so bad that this costly reform is worthwhile?

Comment author: RobinZ 26 February 2010 12:36:06PM 1 point [-]

As wedrifid suggests, I think you overestimate the cost. Heck, English allows the verbing of nouns - screwing around with grammatical number is chump change.

Comment author: wedrifid 26 February 2010 10:18:51AM *  1 point [-]

Most of the people I talk to accept 'they' as natural English. My highschool English teachers would probably be an exception, as was I until I decided to let it go. Wnoise probably has a point that 'singular they' is a matter of dialect, with most, perhaps unfortunately, having lost some of the more elegant subtleties.

And we can foresee that it will increase the amount of ambiguity in English even after this period of confusion is over. Is 'he or she' really so bad that this costly reform is worthwhile?

A good question. I'm happy to leave it with 'singular they' for most people but 'he or she' for people who want to signal sophistication (by speaking correctly). It is probably too late to hope to gain much relief from ambiguity except when you are familiar with your audience's manner of speech.

EDIT: I missed the great, great grandparent about singular bound vs singular referring. Thanks Wei.

Comment author: wnoise 26 February 2010 09:52:18AM 0 points [-]

I do not agree that there is a singular "natural English", but rather many overlapping dialects and gradients. In many of them, some usages of "singular they" are completely accepted, in others, next to no usage is.

Comment author: thomblake 25 February 2010 05:10:35PM 0 points [-]

I mean its not like "Chris lost his money" is unambiguous, it is not at all clear to me weather the he refers to Chris, or someone else. That would probably be clear in discourse because of context.

In proper English, that would not be ambiguous; pronouns always refer to their antecedents, and no other applicable noun can come between the pronoun and the antecedent.

This causes a problem with "they" in this case; "Chris and Pat went to their car" becomes unambiguously "Chris and Pat went to Pat's car" if "they" can refer to "Pat", leaving us with no pronoun for "Chris and Pat".

Comment author: wedrifid 26 February 2010 07:01:32AM 3 points [-]

This causes a problem with "they" in this case; "Chris and Pat went to their car" becomes unambiguously "Chris and Pat went to Pat's car" if "they" can refer to "Pat", leaving us with no pronoun for "Chris and Pat".

It sounds like all these (counterfactual?) people who speak "proper English" need to adapt their language.

Comment author: Douglas_Knight 26 February 2010 06:43:10AM 3 points [-]

In proper English, that would not be ambiguous; pronouns always refer to their antecedents, and no other applicable noun can come between the pronoun and the antecedent.

nolrai explicitly specified "natural language," not your "proper English."