wnoise comments on The Graviton as Aether - Less Wrong

13 Post author: alyssavance 04 March 2010 10:13PM

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Comment author: byrnema 06 March 2010 08:29:12PM *  3 points [-]

I really am grateful for JGWeissman for helping me click on the fact that light isn't something that obeys the wave described by the Maxwell equation, but is that wave. The difference is imagining light as a type of substance compelled to oscillate with the wave pattern, and there being a wave pattern, resulting naturally from causal interactions, that is interpreted by our vision as "light".

Thus this is the explanation I would give my past self for strikethrough(why light oscillates) what light is:

A charge creates an electromagnetic field. If the charge moves, the electromagnetic field will have to change. However, while the field is defined over infinite space, the field cannot update instantaneously over all of space. Instead, the field updates at the speed of light from the new position of the charge. At a small, fixed moment in time after the point charge has moved, the field has updated within a sphere of a certain radius, but has not yet updated outside this radius. What we call 'light' is the defect radiating outward though space like a ripple. When our eyes intercept this defect, we gain information about the point charge's displacement and -- in some way I don't understand, and don't need to for the immediate explanation -- the field no longer needs to keep updating and the ripple stops propagating (the waves collapses to an intercepted particle / photon).

So I no longer see light as a thing traveling though space, but as information about an updated field traveling in finite time.

Does this make sense? I suppose it could be completely wrong, but it is what I mean by a 'mechanical' explanation.

Oh, and I'll add that light oscillates because the electric and magnetic fields update each other in finite time, and there is a slight lag, so that the wave has an amplitude. I see this as analogous to predator-prey oscillations in a Lotka-Volterra model; if the fields responded instantaneously there would be no oscillation.

Comment author: wnoise 06 March 2010 11:38:33PM 1 point [-]

This is a nit-pick, but the oscillation is not because there is any direct delay in the interaction between the electric and magnetic portions, it's because the electric and magnetic portions effect each other through derivatives. This is similar to how the the acceleration (second time derivative of position) is directly related to position in any number of mechanical oscillators, such as springs, pendulums, and even circular orbits, when viewed right. For light, while there are still two time derivatives, they are coupled so that one time-derivative arises between magnetic and electric, and the other arises between electric and magnetic.

Comment author: JGWeissman 06 March 2010 11:50:48PM 0 points [-]

the oscillation is not because there is any direct delay in the interaction between the electric and magnetic portions

I don't see where Byrnema claimed there was such a direct delay.

Comment author: wnoise 07 March 2010 05:09:50AM 0 points [-]

update each other in finite time

Comment author: JGWeissman 07 March 2010 05:16:38AM 0 points [-]

Ok, now I am wondering how I completely missed that last paragraph. I agree with your nit-pick.

Comment author: byrnema 07 March 2010 05:24:02AM *  0 points [-]

It's OK -- it's a matter of language, and not being very precise. Very loosely, in the case of a pendulum, you could say that in the upswing of the pendulum, it takes finite time (a delay) for the pendulum to respond to the downward force of gravity and start moving to 0. By the time it gets to 0, it already has momentum in the other direction and overshoots the equilibrium again. I see how this is the result of the dynamics being described by changes in the derivative of the motion, rather than -- say -- in the direction of motion itself.

Comment author: wnoise 07 March 2010 02:26:46PM 1 point [-]

Right. I'd describe that as a delay for gravity to finish overcoming the motion, rather than a delay in response.

Comment author: JGWeissman 07 March 2010 06:07:46AM 0 points [-]

There is no delay for the pendulum to respond to gravity, it starts accelerating immediately. There could be a delay before it achieves a velocity large enough to be perceived.