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woozle comments on Overcoming the mind-killer - Less Wrong
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I think we're still talking in vagaries, here. "Egalitarianism" and "equity" are two ideals which are themselves simplified maps (kind of like "morals") of two possible ways of achieving optimal outcomes -- where by "optimal" I mean "harm-minimizing".
The only thing we should be arguing about is the exact algorithm by which individual levels of harm are summed to produce a single number -- e.g. which is worse: taking $10 from someone who earns $10k/year or $1 each from 1000 millionaires? If society can easily afford to properly care for every single person while still allowing a great deal of economic diversity above the poverty line (i.e. we can still have people who are ridiculously rich), what possible justification is there for not doing so?
You appear to be taking a utilitarian view of ethics for granted. I'm not a utilitarian so it makes more sense to me to reverse your question and ask what possible justification is there for taking $1 or $10 from anyone without their consent. Terminal values and ethical foundations do not appear to be universal even among humans.
Bypassing the question of terminal values, it would still be very useful to have a good argument map of factual issues which are hotly disputed.
Sure, that's a good question to be asking.
First: would you agree that the benefits we receive from society obligate us to return something to society or else to refrain from receiving those benefits? Or not?
Second, I wasn't arguing that either action would be right, but asking which would be worse, if you had to choose between actions which would result in one of those two outcomes?
I get the impression that our conceptions of ethics and morality differ significantly enough that we probably wouldn't even agree on a valid interpretation of this question. It doesn't really make sense to me to talk of obligations to society. I may have obligations to individuals (or particular groups of individuals) as a result of explicit or implicit contracts I've entered into with them but I don't believe I am morally obligated to reciprocate 'benefits' conferred on me through an arrangement that I have not consented to.
Again, I think the gulf between our ethical foundations prevents a simple answer to this question that would be informative. I'm basically a classical liberal / libertarian. If you understand the ethical framework that implies then you should be able to see why this question doesn't make much sense to me.
Are you saying we should stop trying to bridge that gulf, or should I try to explain myself a different way?
No, I'm in favour of attempts to bridge the gulf and the fact that you are posting here is a promising sign that it might be possible. I'm reluctant to engage further based on what I've seen of your writing on your site so far however - time is a limited resource and I fear that the value I would gain from engaging with you is not worth the time investment. Your comments in this thread have not exhibited the level of partisan blindness I've been worried by on your site however so there may be hope.
Also: I think what you're misunderstanding about the POV on the site is that I am prepared to rationally defend everything I have said there, and I am prepared to retract or alter it if I cannot do so. (Note that there are a few articles posted by others, and I don't necessarily agree with what they have said -- but if I have not responded, it means I also don't disagree strongly enough to bother. Maybe you do, and maybe I will too once the flaws are pointed out.)