Kevin comments on Undiscriminating Skepticism - Less Wrong

97 Post author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 14 March 2010 11:23PM

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Comment author: Jack 16 March 2010 12:00:47AM *  -1 points [-]

This is of course controversial but I've had a number of gay friends and acquaintances deny that there even are true bisexual men. The position they take it is that homosexuality is a binary, pre-natal development characteristic and that bisexual males are pretty much just gay men holding out hope for a normal marriage/family life.

No offense to those men here who identify as bisexual, obviously. This all may just be in group posturing and what not.

Comment author: Kevin 16 March 2010 01:03:03AM 2 points [-]

There are also "David Bowie bisexuals", straight men willing to identify as bisexual in solidarity with the gay rights movement, or as an acknowledgement of the general fluidity of sexuality and gender.

Comment author: Jack 16 March 2010 02:08:55AM 2 points [-]

straight men willing to identify as bisexual in solidarity with the gay rights movement

Interesting. I'm pretty sure my gay friends would find this offensive and patronizing.

Comment author: Kevin 16 March 2010 07:58:37AM *  2 points [-]

This isn't exactly very common (I can't think of a David Bowie bisexual other than David Bowie), and David Bowie was also all kinds of crazy and drugged up at the time. Saying he was gay was kind of stupid, but it certainly was not the dumbest thing he did under the influence of drugs. This is the guy who read some Nietzsche and then misunderstood it so dramatically that he wrote The Supermen. Good song, though.

Comment author: Jack 16 March 2010 08:11:02AM 2 points [-]

I'm willing to forgive David Bowie for nearly anything.

Comment author: Kevin 16 March 2010 10:17:52AM *  -1 points [-]

We could almost call Oh! You Pretty Things transhumanist pop.

I'd embed a copy of the song but Markdown doesn't allow, so anyone that wants to listen will have to google for it.

Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 16 March 2010 02:29:16AM 2 points [-]

I have trouble imagining how I would feel if heterosexuals were persecuted and one of my gay male friends kissed a woman to show solidarity.

Comment author: Jack 16 March 2010 03:18:50AM *  1 point [-]

So I think I just figured out the motivation behind this tactic which wasn't obvious to me before (maybe it was to you). I doubt straight men innately dislike kissing or showing affection toward men. It seems more likely to me that they (okay, we) are either homophobic or wary of the status cost of being seen as gay or bisexual. Thus a straight male who declares himself to be bisexual demonstrates a rejection of homophobia and in part shows that he doesn't think being gay or bisexual is low status and refuses to accept some (but not all) of the privileges he has as a straight male (the privilege language is obviously controversial but it probably isn't to the people who do this).

The problem is part of the anti-gay narrative is that homosexuality isn't actually an important part of anyone's identity, that it isn't innate but basically just people choosing to be "sinful". Identifying as bisexual for political reasons bolsters this position. "If these straight males can choose to behave like bisexuals, then the bisexuals can choose to behave like good, church-going straight people!" Also, the fact is a straight male really can't take on the same persecution non-heterosexuals face. They can always opt out and they are never told that a part of their identity is immoral (their told that the act their putting on is immoral, but that isn't the same thing). And of course in some circles being gay or bisexual is a status booster- my friends would be suspicious I was "coming out" for these status-benefits, not out of a genuine attempt at solidarity. Actually, I've seen this complain leveled at some college-aged bisexual women.

Comment author: CWG 05 June 2015 11:14:50PM *  1 point [-]

I doubt straight men innately dislike kissing or showing affection toward men.

I went to a kissing workshop. (Things escalated slowly and nothing was mandatory.) I was turned off more quickly than I expected by kisses with guys - just by a very short closed-mouth kiss.

(I like hugs though.)

I'm certain I'd also benefit from the bisexual pill, and my aversion to the idea is irrational.

"I hate spinach, which is a good thing because if I liked it I'd eat it all the time, and I hate the stuff." - half remembered second-hand quote, apparently from the 19th C(?)