Matt_Simpson comments on Human values differ as much as values can differ - Less Wrong

13 Post author: PhilGoetz 03 May 2010 07:35PM

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Comment author: Matt_Simpson 04 May 2010 02:20:15PM 7 points [-]

As evidence for someone like this, consider dictators like Kim Jong Il. Opening up North Korea would result in much greater wealth for both him and his people, but it comes with a loss of power and status for Kim Jong. No one thinks he's opening those borders anytime soon. The comparison isn't as drastic, however - Kim Jong's comforts are probably only a decade or two behind modern (I'm speculating).

Comment author: gwern 04 May 2010 03:13:05PM 6 points [-]

Kim Jong's comforts are probably only a decade or two behind modern (I'm speculating).

His likes are idiosyncratic, but as far as they go, he's cutting-edge.

Cognac is routinely cited as one of the top illicit imports, and I don't think he's getting bad cognac; one of his principal interests is/was movies, of which he has a 20,000-strong collection - world-class, I think - and he was infamous for kidnapping 'the famous South Korean movie director Shin Sang Ok and his ex-wife, actress Che Eun Hui, and kept them for eight years while making them produce propaganda films', which is something which is inaccessible to just about everyone, modern or no.

Comment author: Matt_Simpson 04 May 2010 06:24:45PM 1 point [-]

Hmm, Kim Jong Il is apparently a bad example since he's so wealthy. Surely there are dictators who don't have the resources that Kim Jong has (such that they're living in sub-modern conditions), but they still want to hold on to the power and status they hold despite the potential for wealth. right? (again, speculating, no hard evidence in mind)

Comment author: gwern 04 May 2010 07:48:10PM 4 points [-]

Just about any nation-size dictator will be able to scratch up enough cash to live like a millionaire. Extort a few dollars from a million destitute inhabitants and you're talking real money. So you have to look at city or tribal scale units, and even then, I think most chieftains are happier to be in power than out of power in a wealthier nation. How many Afghanistani elders are cooperating with the US, and out of enlightened self-interest, knowing that in any modernized industrial society their clans will be hopelessly obsolete? How many out of naked fear of the Taliban or US, and bribes?

Comment author: SilasBarta 04 May 2010 04:01:17PM 3 points [-]

In How the Mind Works, Steven Pinker has an excellent discussion of Schelling's work on game theory, and argues that, per Schelling's work, the appearance of being a rational individual can actually be a liability for a rogue dictator, so they have an incentive to look kooky.

Kim Jong Il is playing it by the book.

Comment author: Matt_Simpson 04 May 2010 06:37:37PM 0 points [-]

Good point. However, why would the dictator put on the charade and try to keep his status/power unless he valued it more than the wealth he could obtain by opening the country up? If the gains are small, this is probably a good margin to look irrational on, but if the gains are large enough, opening up outweighs the irrational act (on this margin). There are plenty of other things to appear irrational about with lower stakes. You don't have to appear kooky about every single decision you make in order to convince others that you are kooky - just enough of them.

So in a nutshell, if the difference in standards of living for the dictator under the two scenarios are large enough, the irrationality ploy shouldn't matter (much).

Comment author: Vladimir_Nesov 04 May 2010 03:02:29PM *  0 points [-]

Opening up North Korea would result in much greater wealth for both him and his people, but it comes with a loss of power and status for Kim Jong.

I find the premise of Kim Jong-il sharing the poor standard of living with his people (or, not making the most of what the modern world has to offer because of living in his country), completely implausible.

Comment author: Matt_Simpson 04 May 2010 06:26:14PM 0 points [-]

see my reply here