wedrifid comments on Let There Be Light - Less Wrong

39 Post author: Alicorn 17 March 2010 07:35PM

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Comment author: BenAlbahari 31 March 2010 09:54:15AM *  3 points [-]

Thanks for your response. FWIW someone once tried to give me some Myers Briggs P to P mentoring, upon which he exclaimed: "Embrace your P-ness!". Needless to say that sounded much better in his head.

Some people for example have developed the ability to ellicit feelings from others but respond to them in a way that is more systematic than intuitive.

That's a very interesting thought. I'd love to see the experiments confirming this hypothesis. If you point me to some peer reviewed papers, I will add them to the page in the link I mentioned. From the minimal research I did, professional psychologists seem to believe there isn't scientific evidence backing Myers Briggs. An obvious alternative hypothesis to what you describe here is that new behaviors start out being systematic and with enough practice become intuitive. I can't recall where I heard it from, but there's a theory that there's 4 stages of knowing:

Unconscious incompetence -> conscious incompetence -> conscious competence -> unconscious competence.

Under that model, a systematic response corresponds to the third stage, or perhaps even an inability to "let go" to get to the fourth stage (this can be a obstacle for musicians who get consumed by the technical aspect of music). Perhaps though in this case it's the wrong model, and as you suggest, "feeling" is a talent that cannot be learnt.

...to suggest that undesirable traits are inevitable or intrinsic is something I do object to. But I also object to assertions that personalities are not (to a significant extent) intrinsic...

I agree. In fact, one of the most useful things I could imagine for personal development would be a table telling me the extent to which personality traits can be changed. Myers Briggs however, has a fairly extreme stance here, asserting the dimensions are intrinsic. Wikipedia:

The Myers-Briggs typology model regards personality type as similar to left or right handedness: individuals are either born with, or develop, certain preferred ways of thinking and acting.

Some minor niggles:

Closed/J types tend to be more interested in (and so proficient at) forcing such judgements on others.

were you saying that J is correlated with being judgmental? I thought Myers Briggs explicitly tried to avoid saying that. Wikipedia seems to confirm here:

Note that the terms used for each dichotomy have specific technical meanings relating to the MBTI which differ from their everyday usage. For example, people who prefer judgment over perception are not necessarily more judgmental or less perceptive.

and perhaps a technical error here:

P vs J somewhat relates, for example, with 'Open and Closed' from the big 5.

s-N is the one that's primarily correlated with Openess. Wikipedia here:

The Myers-Briggs Type Indicator (MBTI) measures the preference of "intuition," which is related to openness to experience.

Personally, I've found it really hard to correctly apply these correlations in real life. The noise in the theory will increase with the noise generated by me applying the theory. Even if a personality theory has some truth to it, it's often the case that its typically usage ends up operating at the noise floor along with astrology. I noticed you almost seemed shocked to find out someone was an 'S'. Was your surprise appropriately correlated with the correlations?

I guess I'm in the position, like most other people, of being a forced amateur psychologist. As a consumer of the pop-psychology available to the masses, I can give my vote as to whether a theory or technique has had a favorable help/hinder ratio. The ones that I've found the most helpful have challenged me to change what I thought I couldn't, and the ones that have hindered me have drawn grid-lines and told me how I can deal with living in my allocated square. The helpful ones also seem to talk about universal principles of human nature, rather than getting bogged down in categorization. Books like How to Win Friends and Influence People have been vastly more helpful to my personal development than Myers Briggs.

I still haven't addressed all your points (I'd like to hear more about how you overcome Akrasia), but this comment is getting ridiculously long and quite possibly boring so I'll stop here for now.

Comment author: wedrifid 31 March 2010 11:46:26AM *  1 point [-]

That's a very interesting thought. I'd love to see the experiments confirming this hypothesis. If you point me to some peer reviewed papers, I will add them to the page in the link I mentioned. From the minimal research I did, professional psychologists seem to believe there isn't scientific evidence backing Myers Briggs.

I would tend to agree with that. In fact, I would be shocked if the MBTI was found to be the optimal way to carve up the correlations between the multitude of small traits into 16 arbitrary categories. I would love to see more research done collecting all of the information that 'personality test' questions collect, adding in some DNA test results and seeing what correlations can be found. For now I've seen enough (eg. Twin tests on the big 5) to conclude that a significant amount of personality is genetic but I know the systems we have for describing personality right now are abysmal.