Bo102010 comments on "Life Experience" as a Conversation-Halter - Less Wrong

11 Post author: Seth_Goldin 18 March 2010 07:39PM

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Comment author: SilasBarta 20 March 2010 11:54:08PM *  5 points [-]

For example, you and I probably just can't understand what it's like to be in a violent relationship (if you think "Why don't they just leave?", then you don't get it).

Like a lot of relationship-clueless males, I have long thought that, and I accept that I therefore don't "get it". But really, whose fault is that? To me, this looks like Yet Another Case of a large group of people, for reasons of status, not applying the introspection, or the imagination of others' perspectives, that's necessary to articulate the error in "Why don't you just leave?"

If I were to take the perspective of a battered wife and make a genuine effort to articulate the flaw in that thinking, based on the real Silas Barta's best understanding of the psychological and sociological dynamics, I would say something like this:

"You do not see how much I have to lose by leaving this relationship. While I have suffered violently at the hands of my husband, he is still the best father I can expect my children to have, and my children are far more important to me than anything else.

"Furthermore, as a woman, for well-understood evolutionary reasons, I have a much stronger fear of abandonment and associated harm, which would be triggered by such a drastic measure as terminating the relationship. Also, because my husband is so smart, strong, and influential (part of why I was attracted to him in the first place), I fear reprisals from leaving him, and for me to risk ceding sole control of the children to him would put them in danger as well, which, again, I can't allow to happen."

There, that didn't require you to have been in a violent relationship to appreciate, now, did it?

DISCLAIMER: I obviously don't know if that correctly represents what goes through a battered wife's mind (or otherwise generates her emotions), but it's my best guess, and consistent with the oft-claimed inability to explain it. And, of course, it only handles the case of a marriage with children involved, not other common cases like bf/gf.

Counselors who work with such people don't get it either, and helping them involves recognizing this fact.

What? I suspect women who have "been there" are likely to be counselors, and would certainly understand.

Comment author: Bo102010 21 March 2010 02:51:49AM 0 points [-]

There are many variations on a joke the goes like this:

A physicist, engineer, and mathematician are each captured by Omega and placed in sealed rooms with canned food, but no can openers. The physicist sketches the can and derives where the weakest point is, strikes the can, and opens it. The engineer looks up the weak points of the can in a table of cans, strikes it at the appropriate place, and opens it. The mathematician is found later, nearly starved, mumbling "assume the can is open!"

Suggesting "Why don't you just leave" is like suggesting "assume the can is open." The problem is getting to a point where leaving is viable (mentally, emotionally, etc.).

I don't mean to say it's impossible to "get it," but that you, me, and most counselors who are in a situation to professionally assist people probably don't.

Comment author: SilasBarta 21 March 2010 03:12:43AM *  3 points [-]

The situation with abusive relationships is not analogous to the joke because it is not obvious to people who ask, why there would be such barriers to leaving a relationship (i.e. why such an assumption would be unjustifiable). People who ask "why don't you leave" are typically not aware of the usual barriers, nor do they have any reason to be aware of those barriers.

Furthermore, the question often comes up in cases where one party did leave, but kept coming back. So no, I don't see how the joke is helpful or how it shows poor assumptions.

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