MichaelVassar comments on The scourge of perverse-mindedness - Less Wrong
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There actually is a way in which they're right.
My first thought was, "You've got it backwards - it isn't that materialism isn't gloomy; it's that spiritualism is even gloomier." Because spiritual beliefs - I'm usually thinking of Christianity when I say that - don't really give you oughtness for free; they take the arbitrary moral judgements of the big guy in the sky and declare them correct. And so you're not only forced to obey this guy; you're forced to enjoy obeying him, and have to feel guilty if you have any independent moral ideas. (This is why Christianity, Islam, communism, and other similar religions often make their followers morally-deficient.)
But what do I mean by gloomier? I must have some baseline expectation which both materialism and spirituality fall short of, to feel that way.
And I do. It's memories of how I felt when I was a Christian. Like I was a part of a difficult but Good battle between right and wrong.
Now, hold off for a moment on asking whether that view is rational or coherent, and consider a dog. A dog wants to make its master happy. Dogs have been bred for thousands of years specifically not to want to challenge their master, or to pursue their own goals, as wolves do. When a dog can be with its master, and do what its master tells it to, and see that its master is pleased, the dog is genuinely, tail-waggingly happy. Probably happier than you or I are even capable of being.
A Christian just wants to be a good dog. They've found a way to reach that same blissful state themselves.
The materialistic worldview really is gloomy compared to being a dog.
And we don't have any way to say that we're right and they're wrong.
Factually, of course, they're wrong. But when you're a dog, being factually wrong isn't important. Obeying your master is important. Judged by our standards of factual correctness, we're right and they're wrong. Judged by their standards of being (or maybe feeling like) a good dog, they're right and we're wrong.
One of the problems with CEV, perhaps related to wireheading, is that it would probably fall into a doglike attractor. Possibly you can avoid it by writing into the rules that factual correctness trumps all other values. I don't think you can avoid it that easily. But even if you could, by doing so, you've already decided whose values you're going to implement, before your FAI has even booted up; and the whole framework of CEV is just a rationalization to excuse the fact that the world is going to end up looking the way you want it to look.
I disagree with most of this but vote it up for being an excellent presentation of a complex and important position that must be addressed (though as noted, I think it can be) and hasn't been adequately addressed to satisfy (or possibly even to be understood by) all or most LW readers.
Phil, I suggest, that you try to look at Christian and secular children (and possibly those of some other religions) and decide empirically whether they really seem to differ so much in happiness or well being. Looking at people in a wide range of cultures in situations would in general be helpful, but especially that contrast or mostly, I suspect, lack of contrast.
Children are where not to look. Dogs psychologically resemble wolf-pups; they are childlike. Religion, like the breeding of dogs, is neotenous; it allows retention of childlike features into adulthood. To see the differences I'm talking about, you therefore need to look at adults.
Anyway, if you're asking me to judge based on who is the happiest, you've taken the first step down the road to wireheading. Dogs have been genetically reprogrammed to develop in a way that wires their value system to getting a pat on the head from their master.
The basic problem here is how we can simultaneously preserve human values, and not become wireheads, when some people are already wireheads. The religious worldview I spoke of above is a kind of wireheading. Would CEV dismiss it as wireheading? If so, what human values aren't wireheading? How do we walk the tightrope between wireheads and moral realists? Is there even a tightrope to walk there?