nhamann comments on The mathematical universe: the map that is the territory - Less Wrong

68 Post author: ata 26 March 2010 09:26AM

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Comment author: nhamann 26 March 2010 03:45:39PM *  5 points [-]

Is this implying a "yes" to the Tree Falls in the Forest question? Has that question been decided, and if not, does this theory not fall apart without it?

First off, welcome to Less Wrong! You should take a look at some of the sequences, as this exact question has been addressed (see: Disputing Definitions). To be brief, the consensus around here is that the "Tree Falls in the Forest" question is a wrong question, and should be dissolved.

Comment deleted 26 March 2010 04:34:22PM *  [-]
Comment author: ata 27 March 2010 08:47:05AM *  3 points [-]

My question is more like "to what extent does perceiving or not perceiving something determine whether and to what degree it can be said to exist?".

I recommend looking through the Quantum Physics Sequence, or at least the "Quantum Physics Revealed As Non-Mysterious" and/or "And the Winner is... Many-Worlds!" subsequences. Aside from the general matters of map versus territory, our specific knowledge of quantum physics indicates that the observer/collapse effects you may have heard about are not part of what the universe is really doing.

As for self-perception... for all the problems with Descartes's philosophy of mind, "cogito ergo sum" is still a pretty good standard, at least for setting a bare minimum baseline for a definition of existence. (That is, if your definition of existence doesn't allow you to be pretty confident that you yourself exist, it can't be a very good definition.) Further, based on the assumptions of materialism and reductionism (see Zombies? Zombies! and GAZP), I concluded that if a being (whether a normal human you're interacting with, an AI, a person in a simulated universe, etc.) says that they feel conscious, real, etc., and you are confident that they have some mechanism for actually acquiring such a belief that is at least as good as your own (e.g. their program has to actually be mindlike, not just printf("I experience qualia! How mysterious!"); exit(0)), then you should take their word for it.

Comment author: RobinZ 26 March 2010 07:19:44PM 3 points [-]

Anyway, the last I'd heard it was still (understandably) an undecided question. It is known though that observation effects reality so I would think it should be given some consideration.

  1. Be careful about how you interpret news stories about quantum physics - quantum physics is a very confusing subject, and is often distorted severely by the reporting process.

  2. Affect and effect have tremendously different meanings in this context - please don't mix them up.

Comment author: orthonormal 27 March 2010 05:49:13AM 1 point [-]

The Simple Truth is another good place to start when considering these map-territory questions.