PhilGoetz comments on The Shabbos goy - Less Wrong

35 Post author: PhilGoetz 26 March 2010 04:16PM

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Comment author: PhilGoetz 26 March 2010 09:00:27PM *  10 points [-]

I see - If people use "Jew" to mean "the agent you need to help you work around problems in your morals", the negative association bleeds over onto the word "Jew", even though it's the Christian (in the money-lending example) who's committing the error.

Writing is more memorable when you use emotionally-laden terms, but also riskier.

I used the term "Christian" a lot, too; and implied the Christians were the ones at fault. But that wasn't uncomfortable?

I'm thinking how to reword it so that it doesn't go flat, but so far nothing comes to mind.

Is there an existing term to refer to the person you use to commit your sins for you? Scapegoat isn't right. Is there a word for a person hired to operate electric devices for you on the Sabbath?

In looking for the answer to this, I found this absolutely wonderful page explaining different rules about the use of electricity on the Sabbath. Studying it would make an excellent preparation for law school. Here's a quote:

It is forbidden on the Sabbath to set the alarm of a battery-operated transistorized alarm clock or a wind-up alarm clock even though the alarm was wound before the Sabbath. The reasons are that he is creating sound with an implement built to produce sound and he is temporarily improving the clock. Even if the clock was prepared before the Sabbath, some authorities prohibit this because making noise on the Sabbath is a degradation of the Sabbath unless it is needed in order to perform a mitzvah such as getting up to make it to the synagogue on time. It is however, permitted to close the alarm if his intention is to stop the noise or an other reason, but not if his intention is to save the batteries. This is because it is comparable to dismantling an implement on condition to rebuild it. However, on Yom-Tov it is permitted unless it is an electric clock plugged into the wall outlet. The reason is that high voltage sparks created by opening and closing the alarm when the alarm is to go off may be hot enough to ignite fuel and is consequently in the category of kindling a fire.

Comment author: Alicorn 26 March 2010 09:15:57PM 7 points [-]

Is there a word for a person hired to operate electric devices for you on the Sabbath?

Shabbos goy.

Comment author: PhilGoetz 26 March 2010 09:24:24PM *  7 points [-]

Awesome!

So it's less-offensive to use the term "Shabbos goy", which logically criticizes Judaism, than to use the term "Jew", which creates a negative association with Judaism.

Comment author: PhilGoetz 27 March 2010 04:51:19AM *  2 points [-]

If that's so, then if you tell people

"Black people were slaves. (Slavery is bad.)"

"Women are paid less than men. (People who are paid less are valued less.)"

what they hear are the associations

"Black people are bad."

"Women are less valuable than men."

Comment author: Kevin 26 March 2010 10:24:12PM 0 points [-]

Jew is just a really loaded word because it is used by various sorts of supremacists. "Jewish person" can be substituted without any kind of negative connotation.

Comment author: Cyan 26 March 2010 10:15:44PM 1 point [-]

Got here late -- what was the original title?

Comment author: PhilGoetz 26 March 2010 10:27:25PM 18 points [-]

"Kill the Jews".

I guess some people are just touchy.

Comment author: Jack 26 March 2010 10:21:02PM 3 points [-]

Necessary Jews

Comment author: ata 27 March 2010 11:30:29PM 8 points [-]

When I first saw it under that title, before I read the article, I read it as contrasting with "Sufficient Jews" or possibly "Contingent Jews".

I'm still enjoying imagining what those could possibly mean.

Comment author: Jack 26 March 2010 10:26:53PM 0 points [-]

Is the plural Shabbos goyim?

Comment author: Alicorn 26 March 2010 10:29:05PM *  0 points [-]

I'd assume so. I'm only half-Jewish on my dad's side, and he was brought up in a fairly liberal sect and ditched even that shortly after getting bar mitzvahed and didn't pass on a Jewish surname - I'm as non-Jewish as one can get while retaining any claim to it at all. So I'm not a proper authority on the subject.

Comment author: PhilGoetz 26 March 2010 10:33:44PM 1 point [-]

I thought that you're considered Jewish if your mother was Jewish, and not Jewish if she wasn't.

Comment author: komponisto 27 March 2010 01:50:47AM *  1 point [-]
Comment author: Alicorn 26 March 2010 10:36:54PM *  1 point [-]

Exactly. Genetics, of course, don't give a damn whence the Jewishness, and it didn't inhibit my ability to pick up secondhand culture either except inasmuch as that set of grandparents died when I was a kid, but my point was that it being on my dad's side makes me "less Jewish" by a relevant metric.

Comment author: Academian 26 March 2010 09:17:48PM 5 points [-]

Jack is right that it's distracting, and Phil is right that it shouldn't be.

Comment author: bogus 26 March 2010 09:24:03PM *  1 point [-]

Is there an existing term to refer to the person you use to commit your sins for you? Scapegoat isn't right.

"Henchman" or "cat's-paw" seem fine to me.