juliawise comments on Tell Your Rationalist Origin Story - Less Wrong

30 Post author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 25 February 2009 05:16PM

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Comment author: PhilosophyTutor 31 December 2011 03:27:01AM 2 points [-]

What you may not appreciate is that some RC beliefs, while incredible to outsiders, nevertheless are logically inseparable from other beliefs that are shared with other Christians; once abandoned, other cracks form, and it all falls down, including parts which are widely accepted as true.

Internal consistency is a virtue to be sure, although differences in degree of internal consistency between Christian sub-sects all of whose beliefs are based on multiple irrational and/or self-contradictory premises do not mean a great deal to me personally.

RC is, as you say, the religion which "tried hardest to rationalise" all its beliefs, depending on the absolute minimum of non-rational arguments (i.e., from sacred scripture or human authority). It does this with a vocabulary which, I admit, is extremely challenging to the uninitiated. (Aristotelian/Thomistic logic and hylemorphism.) Nonetheless, within that philosophical system, it is quite consistent. It's like picking up a book on string theory -- you ain't gonna "get it" on the first pass (nor the second pass, in all likelihood.)

As a philosopher I think that it's good intellectual exercise to get to grips with bad arguments like those the Catholic church use. However there's no truth in those arguments to "get", and there are other forms of intellectual exercise which might well be more beneficial for the general LW readership.

(Sorta off-topic) I was not aware that people doubted the existence of the founder of Buddhism. If he did not exist, could a reasonable religion be attributed to him? <scratches head> :-)

A religion could be the most rational and consistent of religions if its sole departure from reality was a fictional founder. Christianity, for example, has a fictional founder (the Biblical Jesus never existed according to the available evidence nor anyone substantially like him) but has lots of other departures from reality as well.

Comment author: FeatherlessBiped 31 December 2011 05:10:26AM 0 points [-]

FYI, this seemed decent:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_myth_theory

The preponderance of the evidence would seem to be that he really did exist.

Comment author: PhilosophyTutor 31 December 2011 05:30:14AM 2 points [-]

The preponderance of the evidence would seem to be that he really did exist.

Bible scholars have a consensus that this is the case, although whether they are doing any actual scholarship with regard to the issue is questionable. Atheists by and large do not become Bible scholars, and the mind-killing effects of religion mean that theists tend to do notably poor scholarship in this particular area.

However when a rationalist tries to drill down to the actual evidence you find that nothing is there, apart from Bible scholars reading the Bible and saying "this Paul guy seems legit, I don't think he'd have made that up".

Comment author: juliawise 31 December 2011 03:42:57PM 2 points [-]

Atheists by and large do not become Bible scholars

No, but many Bible scholars become atheists after they realize how nonsensical their study material is.

It seems likely to me that there was some person who served as the nucleus for a Jesus myth, just as it seems likely there was a real Briton general who served as the nucleus for a King Arthur myth. But we have no way of knowing anything about either, and I don't see that it matters much either way.

Comment author: FeatherlessBiped 31 December 2011 07:31:41PM 1 point [-]

Do you have a reference to support your first claim?

Comment author: juliawise 01 January 2012 04:01:03PM *  0 points [-]

I've heard of several. I don't know stats on what proportion of Bible scholars de-convert.

Bart D. Ehrman - author of a book saying lots of the New Testament was forged

Francesca Stavrakopoulou (unclear when she became atheist)

Robert Price - went from Baptist minister to Cthulu mythologist. Not kidding.

Jacques Berlinerblau, who does say he knows few openly atheist biblical scholars.

Comment author: FeatherlessBiped 08 January 2012 09:18:31PM 0 points [-]

The second sentence of this response is a non-defense of your thesis, and the rest of it does not help your case, much. I am open to evidence of your claim that "many" have become atheists. For the sake of argument, I would admit that >10% conversion rate would count as "many", as would, say, some absolute number such as 1,000 in the last 100 years.

Perhaps you can find some authority who has researched this question?

Comment author: juliawise 10 January 2012 11:41:20AM 1 point [-]

Sorry, I intended my above comment to mean: "There are some, I found these four, but apparently (according to Jacques Berlinerblau), there aren't many."