Desrtopa comments on Tell Your Rationalist Origin Story - Less Wrong

30 Post author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 25 February 2009 05:16PM

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Comment author: PhilosophyTutor 31 December 2011 04:49:08PM *  0 points [-]

No, that's a completely unbelievable explanation. If he was fictional he'd not have been of Nazareth with a circuitous reasoning about why he was also of Bethlehem -- he'd have been directly of Bethlehem. His name wouldn't have been Jesus with a completely circuitous explanation about why "Emmanuel" also counts as his name, his name would have been directly Emmanuel.

These all seem to me to be false dichotomies, which assume that it's impossible either for a single creator to have embroidered their story as they went along, or for multiple creators or editors to have changed the story at different points in time.

Nor do I know of any fictional characters that are so deliberately placed recent history and yet their existence is believed by their contemporaries as real. If the Christian movement had began in the 1st century, and yet its founder placed as having lived in 3rd century BC, that explanation might make sense. But he was placed as a contemporary, and expected to be believed to be real. You don't do that with fictional founders of your order.

As long as it's far enough away in time and space that your claims can't be checked, what difference does it make? This seems to me like a post hoc justification for believing the Bible story, not an argument that anyone would have come up with if they didn't have a pet hypothesis to defend.

Also we don't have any evidence that Jesus' contemporaries believed he was real. The reports of people believing Jesus was real come from long after Jesus supposedly died.

Comment author: Desrtopa 31 December 2011 05:07:34PM 3 points [-]

These all seem to me to be false dichotomies, which assume that it's impossible either for a single creator to have embroidered their story as they went along, or for multiple creators or editors to have changed the story at different points in time.

According to the messianic prophesies (of which Jesus fulfilled practically none even according to generous interpretations) the messiah was supposed to be born in the land of David, which was Bethlehem. Being from somewhere else was inconvenient for a prospective messiah, so his followers had an incentive to claim that he was from there even if he really wasn't. The hypothesis of a real cult leader whose followers wanted to believe he was the messiah predicts the nonsensical census story better than the hypothesis of an imaginary figure who was invented to be a messiah; much simpler and more convenient to simply say that his family was from Bethlehem.