pjeby comments on It's not like anything to be a bat - Less Wrong

15 Post author: Yvain 27 March 2010 02:32PM

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Comment author: Mitchell_Porter 15 May 2010 03:27:14AM 3 points [-]

"Qualia" is effectively a name for all those properties which constitute your experience of the world, but which do not exist in the current ontology of natural science (thus we have the spectacle of people on this site needing to talk about "how it feels" to be a brain or a computer program, an additional property instinctively tacked on to the physical description precisely to make up for this lack).

This is a problem that has been building in scientific culture for centuries, ever since a distinction between primary and secondary properties was introduced. Mathematical physics raised the description and analysis of the "primary" properties - space, quantity, causality - to a high art, while the "secondary" properties - all of sensation, to begin with, apart from the bare geometric form of things - were put to one side. And there have always been a few people so enraptured by the power of physics and related disciplines that they were prepared to simply deny the existence of the ontological remainder (just as there have been "irrationalists" who were really engaged in affirming the reality of what was being denied).

We are now at the stage of figuring out rather detailed correlations between parts and states of the brain, described in material terms, and aspects of conscious experience, as experienced and reported "subjectively" or "in the first person". But a correlation is not yet an identity (and the verifiable correlations are still mostly of the form "X has something to do with Y"). Mostly people are being property dualists without realizing it: they believe their experiences are real, they believe those experiences are identical with brain states, but out of sheer habit they haven't noticed that the two sides of the identity are actually quite different ontologically.

Dennett belongs to that minority of materialists, more logically consistent but also more in denial of reality, who really are trying to deny the existence of the secondary properties, now known as qualia. It's possible to read him otherwise, because he does talk about his own experience; but if you look at his checklist of properties to deny, you can see he's a sort of neo-behaviorist, focused on verbal behavior. Indeed, the only thing neo about his behaviorism is that he has a physical model of how this behavior is caused (connectionist neural networks). But he is careful to say quite explicitly that there is no "Cartesian theater", no phenomenal color, no inner life, just people talking about these things.

I cannot tell if you are truly in Dennett's camp, or if you're just rejecting the view that there's something especially problematic about explaining sensations. A lot of people who talk about qualia are trying to emphasize that a description of human beings in terms of causal interactions between pieces of matter is leaving something out. But the things being left out are not in any way elusive or ineffable.

Science seems to be telling us that your whole life, everything you have ever experienced, is nothing but changes of state occurring in a few trillion neurons which have been sitting inside the same small dark space (your skull) for a few decades. Now if that's the case, I may not be able to write an equation describing the dynamics, but I do know what that is physically. It's a large number of electrons and quarks suspended in space by electromagnetic fields. If we are to unconditionally accept this as a description of what our lives and experiences really are, then we have to be able to identify everything - everything - we have ever thought, known, or done, the whole of our subjective realities, as a process composed of nothing but changes of states of particles all occurring within a few cubic centimeters of space. And I have no hesitation at all in saying that this is impossible, at least if the basic ingredients, those particles and fields, are understood as we currently conceive them to be.

Quite apart from the peculiar difficulty involved in identifying complex subjective states like "going diving in the Caribbean on your 25th birthday" with the electrical state of a captive neuronal porridge, the basic raw ingredients of subjective experience, like color qualia, simply aren't there in an arrangement of pointlike objects in space. This is why materialists who aren't eliminativists like Dennett are instead dualists, whether they realize it or not - because they simultaneously assert the existence of both the world of atoms in space and the world of subjective experience. These two worlds may be correlated, that is being demonstrated every day by neuroscience, but they simply cannot be identified under the physical ontology we have.

In my opinion the future lies with a new monism. But "physics" will have to be reconceptualized, if that world of subjective experience really is going to be found somewhere inside the skull, because as things stand there is nothing like it in there. I would also say that doing this is going to require a leap as big as anything in human intellectual and cultural history. It won't just be a matter of identifying the "neural correlate of consciousness". Someone is going to have to go right back to the epistemic beginning, before the distinction between primary and secondary properties, and rethink the whole of natural science from Galileo through to molecular neuroscience, while keeping the secondary properties in view. You can always reduce science to subjectivity, if you're prepared to let go of your models and remember that everything that has ever happened to you has occurred within your own subjective experience, so that's the easy part. What we're aiming for is far more difficult, namely, an objective world-picture which really does contain subjective experience and is true to its nature while also encompassing everything else. Of course, all those people who are out there trying to "naturalize subjective experience" or "naturalize phenomenology" are trying to do this, but without exception they presuppose the current "naturalistic" ontology, and yet somehow that is where the change and the progress has to occur.

Comment author: pjeby 15 May 2010 04:24:51AM 3 points [-]

Quite apart from the peculiar difficulty involved in identifying complex subjective states like "going diving in the Caribbean on your 25th birthday" with the electrical state of a captive neuronal porridge, the basic raw ingredients of subjective experience, like color qualia, simply aren't there in an arrangement of pointlike objects in space.

Suppose I write a computer program (such as Second Life or World of Warcraft) that simulates the properties of an imaginary reality. Have I now created new "subjective secondary properties"? After all, in the real world, objects do not have owners and copyability, nor levels of mana or hit points. Is this "duality", then?

What about a book that describes an imaginary world? Is it duality because there are only words on the page, and these have no physical correlate to the things described?

The reasoning that you're using is an application of the mind projection fallacy. Human brains have built-in pattern recognition for seeing things as "minds", and having volition -- and this notion is itself an example of an imaginary property projected onto reality. The projection doesn't make the projected quality exist in outside reality, it merely exists in the computational model physically represented in the mind that makes the projection

tl;dr version: imaginary attributions in a model do not create dualtiy, or else computer programs have qualia equal to those of humans. Since no mysterious duality is required to create computer programs, we need not hypothesize that such is to create human subjective experience.

Comment author: Mitchell_Porter 16 May 2010 06:31:38AM 1 point [-]

Human brains have built-in pattern recognition for seeing things as "minds", and having volition -- and this notion is itself an example of an imaginary property projected onto reality. The projection doesn't make the projected quality exist in outside reality, it merely exists in the computational model physically represented in the mind that makes the projection

(My emphases.)

You seem to be contradicting yourself there. The mind only exists in the mind?

Comment author: pjeby 16 May 2010 05:36:43PM 4 points [-]

The mind only exists in the mind?

The intuitive notion of "mind" exists only in the physical manifestation of the mind.

Or to put it (perhaps) more clearly: the only reason we think dualism exists is because our (non-dual) brains tell us so. Like beauty, it's in the eye of the beholder.

Our judgment of whether something is intelligent or sentient is based on an opaque weighing of various sensory criteria, that tell us whether something is likely to have intentions of its own. We start out as children thinking that almost everything has this intentional quality, and gradually learn the things that don't.

It's as if brains have a built-in (at or near birth) "mind detector" circuit that triggers for some things, and not others, and which can be trained to cease seeing certain things as minds.

What it doesn't do, is ever fire for something whose motions and innards are fully understood as mechanical - so it doesn't matter how sophisticated AI ever gets, there will still be people who will insist it's neither conscious nor intelligent, simply because their built-in "mind detector" doesn't fire when they look at it.

And that's what people are doing when they claim special status for consciousness and qualia: elevating their genetically-biased intuition into the realm of physical law, not unlike people who insist there must be a soul that lives after death... because their "mind detector" refuses to cease firing when someone dies.

In short, this intuitive notion of mind gets in the way of developing actual artificial intelligence, and it leads to enormous wastes of time in discussions of dualism. Without the mind detector -- or if the operation of our mind detectors were fully transparent to the rest of our mental processes -- nobody would waste much time on the idea that there's anything non-physical. We'd only get as far as realizing that if there were non-physical things, we'd have no way to know about them.

However, since we do have an opaque mind-detector, that's capable of firing for the wind and the rain and for memories of dead people as easily as it does for live animals and people in front of us, we can get the feeling that we are having physical experiences of the non-physical... when that's a blatantly obvious contradiction in terms.

It's only by elevating your feelings and intuitions to the level of fact (i.e. abandoning science), that you can continue to insist that non-physical things exist in the physical world. It's pointing to reality and saying, I feel X when I look at it, therefore it is X.

(A bit like the religious fundamentalists who say that they feel icky when they see gays, therefore homosexuality is disgusting.)

Comment author: RobinZ 16 May 2010 05:47:01PM 1 point [-]

(A bit like the religious fundamentalists who say that they feel icky when they see gays, therefore homosexuality is disgusting.)

I would have said, "A bit like philosophers of free will who say that they feel like they could have done something else, and therefore determinism must be false". (: