CronoDAS comments on Pain and gain motivation - Less Wrong
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Yeah... I think I get it, at least somewhat. But what if you think that you have stronger positive motivations to do something else, say, World of Warcraft?
Well, I was using "put food on the table" in the usual metaphorical sense. (And if I could deal with the whole "not being hungry" thing without actually eating, I would; I don't get all that much pleasure from food.)
In terms of my own situation, though, I'm not working...
You say you have clients. How do I sign up?
Motivation is measured in feeling, not thinking. Thinking about what feelings you might or might not have is like dancing about architecture -- it might be entertaining, but it's not very informative. ;-)
You're only assuming that it's a positive motivation, and in your shoes (if I understand your situation correctly) it's not a great assumption, even if the vast majority of Warcraft players are primarily positively-motivated.
Myself, I got bored with WoW after a couple of months, so I can't speak for the WoW players out there.
(More relevant comments will come later, after I think of some.)
I wasn't talking about myself in particular there. I was trying to be more abstract.
Okay, here's something.
When I was in college, I often had something that I wanted to be doing, but I had all that damn homework to do. When I sat down to do my homework, all I could think about was how awful it was and how much I'd rather be doing something else. But if I went and did something else, I had to deal with having a lot of homework to do and not doing it. I eventually found what turned out to be a satisfactory way to resolve the dilemma.
I dropped the course, and felt very relieved afterward.
As I've mentioned before, I can honestly say that I only graduated because of my parents' pressure. If I dropped out of college after my second or third year, I think I could have avoided a lot of unnecessary suffering; so far, the only real benefit I've gotten from my college degree has been that my parents are satisfied with the amount of education I have.
So, I'm not entirely clear, but I get the impression you're presenting this as an example of something that you wouldn't do if you dropped the negative motivation for it.... and implying that this is somehow bad.
If so, then I'd point out that if indeed the only positive result you got from your degree is your relief with your parents' satisfaction, then you could've gotten that result a lot easier and quicker by deleting your brain's evaluation of their dissatisfaction as a SASS threat.
FWIW, both I and my clients have passed through periods that I've tongue-in-cheekly called, "the dark night of the soul" -- a period where you've removed one or more major negative motivations, and then realize you have no idea WTF you're doing with your life or want to do with it in the future.
However, a period like this is not the result of having no negative motivation - it's the result of having removed only one level of negative motivation, without reaching your fundamental values or criteria yet. (That is, you no longer have negative motivation, but you're still judging your life by negative criteria.)
Once you get the criteria as well as the motivation, things start to turn around, and you begin (re)discovering all the things you actually like about life and the world. One of the key issues for me was realizing that I cannot "figure out" or "solve" what I want. (As I said, thinking about feelings is like dancing about architecture.)
What I've realized is that I have to actually ask myself what I already want, and that when I ask that question, there are answers, so long as I do NOT engage in trying to figure out what I should want, or what would "make me happy", or any other sort of goal-oriented process.
Fundamentally, positive motivation is not something that you use in order to get something else. As long as you treat it as a tool to get yourself to do something, you're still stuck in the same box -- your real motivation at that point is whatever problem you're trying to solve by adding positive motivation.
Having your parents tell you "If we are sufficiently dissatisfied, you'll be homeless" is kind of scary. :(
Getting a college degree is supposed to be of great benefit - and if I had gone on to have a career as an engineer or programmer or something, it would have been. And at least I have the social status associated with "college graduate" instead of "college dropout".
That sounds like me right now.
I feel like I ought to do something impressive with my life. Many of the other students in my high school thought I was some kind of super-genius who was going to end up as the next Bill Gates or something, and I feel that, by not living up to my potential, as it were, it would be like I'm letting them down. I have a fantasy that I go to sleep one day, spend the next ten to fifteen years as a philosophical zombie, and become consciousness after having done something impressive enough that I can retire and not worry about having to do anything else. (Like in those mediocre movies "13 Going on 30" and "Click".) I'm embarrassed whenever someone asks me what I do for a living, and ashamed that I'm . I want to be respected, but I'm not willing to do what it takes to earn that respect in either the most common manner (become an employee) or the next most common manner (become an entrepreneur). And I'm worried about what will happen when my parents get too old to support me. (I'm 27, and they're both 61.) I've tried my best to deal with this by simply not caring about what happens to me in the future, but that's hard, and eventually the future happens anyway.
I think there should have been a paragraph break in there somewhere. :(
What pushes you forward, holds you back. That is, it is precisely this feeling of "ought" that is the problem.
When you have an ought or a should, it is generally shorthand for "something bad will happen if I don't". The something bad is not expressed, because then whenever you comply with your "should" you appear more "moral" to your compatriots, than if you are "merely" complying out of duress.
It's essential to identify the precise nature of the unconsciously-represented threat (which is where SASS comes in), and to flip it around to the positive form of that need.
And are you afraid they won't like you, or won't respect you?
Don't analyze - just feel what it's like to let them down... is it more like being lonely and rejected, or ashamed and humiliated? Are you a less-good person for doing this, a less-important person, or something else?
In this context, ashamed and humiliated.
Ok, Status then. What would it be like if your parents were proud of you, regardless of whether you ever accomplished anything or not? (Again, don't think... just ask the question and feel the answer.)
Relieved. And a bit guilty.
It's like I tricked them or something - what do they have to be proud of, if all I do is stay home and do nothing? Now I'm feeling confused. My father has told me that it reflects badly on him as a parent if I don't, say, arrive at high school on time. (He's also said that now that I'm legally an adult, I'm not his responsibility any more, and he can't be dragged into family court over my behavior, so I can do what I want. He also told me that a friend of his actually did have to go to family court because his daughter was always late to school.) And now I'm rambling again. Anyway, at this point, they're perfectly happy to accept "self-sufficient" as enough from me; they don't want me to be homeless and starving after they can't support me financially any more, and have repeatedly made the point that "there's no government welfare for single, non-disabled, childless men who don't work" in the United States.
Now, this is where the fun bit comes in. Pay attention to how your brain just successfully defended you against changing your assumptions.
Specifically, the assumption that your parents need to be proud of something... when, in fact, normal healthy parents are proud of their kids when they make mudpies or say "gaga" or something.
To put it another way, your brain has habituated to assuming that your parents' pride is supposed to be conditional on you doing something, and that it's therefore somehow "not right" for you to feel pride in yourself, unless you're doing something that would get your parents to be proud of you.
This is the way SASS imprinting works -- we pay attention to what our parents and peers give us positive and negative SASS for, and then we internalize the algorithms we observe them using, for when to give ourselves (and other people) positive or negative SASS.
This is how we acquire our (effective) value systems, and the way to undo it is by changing the rules under which our self-supplied SASS pellets and shocks are delivered.
Part of doing this is just realizing that it's really you who controls your own SASS allocation. Just now, by me asking you how you'd feel if your parents were proud of you, you began to feel some of the relief that you'd feel if you increased your self-delivered level of Status. (Specifically, in the "pride" part.)
Of course, as discussed elsewhere in this thread, you stopped imagining as soon as you found an objection to the experience.
Notice how you then quickly changed what you were imagining to restore your previous world model -- you were to imagine what would happen if your parents had unconditional pride in you, and you immediately began asking, "but what do they have to be proud of?"
And the reason you're "feeling confused" is because I just asked a question that draws on your brain's information in a way that leads to a contradiction in your current mental model... similar to the confusion a theist feels when an atheist argument hits too close to home.
The response is also similar: defend the existing belief structure by treating the original belief as axiomatic... and the rest of what you wrote is, as you said, "rambling"... a successful distraction to get you away from even temporarily accepting a premise that would annihilate a chunk of your current worldview.
One of the reasons this sort of thing is difficult is because children are wired to believe their parents are intrinsically perfect, and that therefore any negative consequences of interacting with parents are considered to be your fault. If your parents aren't proud of you (giving you Status pellets), then you must be defective.
Of course, later on in life, we do gain the ability to criticize our parents, their values and behaviors. But by that point, the damage is already done: we've already adopted their rules for SASS allocation, tucked away out of conscious awareness. And thus, we rarely question them.
Now, the questions I've asked you are part of the process of pulling your imprinted SASS allocation rules into the light, where they can be destroyed by reflection. They don't work, however, if you back away from the question. Your desire to experience something new -- to learn more of the truth, if you will -- has to exceed your desire to remain comfortably within your existing world view.
If you repeat the question -- and this time, actually allow yourself to experience what it would be like if your parents had always been proud of you... then a portion of your current worldview will die, but YOU will become more free.
And that's because your current SASS rules are over-constrained compared to a normal, healthy human being -- one who knows in the back of their mind that their parents were always proud of them, always loved them... and thus has set their internal Status and Affiliation setpoints to a higher minimum setting than yours.
So, if you've ever wondered what the difference was between you and those other people, now you know. And you also have a piece of what you need to know to DO something about it.
The rest is really up to you.
I don't normally do the sort of thing I've been doing with you, with people who aren't paying me money to do so. But that's not as much a matter of needing to make a living, as it has to do with the fact that people who haven't put something important on the line in order to get my advice, aren't usually that motivated to stick with it through their resistance to the actual process of changing.
When somebody's paying me money, though, they implicitly grant me a role and a degree of Status in their mind that facilitates their complying with my instructions, even when it's difficult. It also allows me to hand them back some of that Status, through my paying attention to what they're saying, and showing persistence in sticking with the interaction myself, even if it's as difficult for me as it is for them.
(This same sort of transaction also occurs in therapy, coaching, and other paid interactions between human beings, btw. Because by default, we assume that at least our Status and Affiliation have to come from other people. The irony, however, is that the people who really have SASS in their lives are the ones who learned good rulesets from their parents for when to give themselves (and others) positive SASS.)
Anyway, now I'm rambling, too. ;-)