wedrifid comments on The role of mathematical truths - Less Wrong

14 Post author: SilasBarta 24 April 2010 04:59PM

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Comment author: Jack 25 April 2010 02:14:42AM *  7 points [-]

That there is an immaterial realm of ideal forms (structures, concepts) of which our universe consists solely of imperfect approximations of.

This stuff about imperfect approximations is just a remnant of Plato's mysticism. Few modern platonists would say anything like that. This notion of an immaterial "realm" has similar connotations. How about:

Platonism is the view that there exist such things as abstract objects — where an abstract object is an object that does not exist in space or time and which is therefore entirely non-physical and non-mental.

Platonism is appealing because it adheres to our norm of accepting the existence of things we make true statements about. "Silas is cool" implies the existence of Silas. Similarly, "3 is prime" implies the existence of 3. The list of non-platonist options as far as I can recall consists of: mathematical objects are mental objects, mathematical objects are physical objects, statements about mathematical objects are false (like statements about Santa Claus), or statements about mathematical objects are actually paraphrases of sentences that don't commit us to the existence of abstract objects.

It seems like you are trying something like the last. But for this strategy you really should give explicit paraphrases or, ideally, a method for paraphrasing all mathematical truths.

I would say instead that there is some generating function for reality. A system of inscriptions/rules can describe that generating function imperfectly; but this in no way means that the rule/inscription system has some existence apart from its instantiation as the universe itself, and again explicitly in a model.

But then what kind of thing is this function? It clearly isn't merely a set of inscriptions and rules for manipulating them (the models). Nor is it merely the physical universe. We talk like it exists. If it doesn't, why do we talk like this and what do claims about it really mean?

Comment author: wedrifid 26 April 2010 10:04:25AM 0 points [-]

Platonism is appealing because it adheres to our norm of accepting the existence of things we make true statements about. "Silas is cool" implies the existence of Silas.

To bring the comparison closer to the mark: It would also imply the existence of 'cool'.

Comment author: Jack 26 April 2010 12:18:42PM *  0 points [-]

Heh. What I had in mind was Quine's criterion for ontological commitment under which it wouldn't. So Silas is cool is something like, where cool is the predicate letter C: ∃x(Cx ∩ x="Silas"). We're committed to the existence of the bound variables (to exist is to be the value of a bound variable) but not of the properties, there doesn't have to be anything like coolness (assuming that was what you were suggesting).

There is an older argument that claims all words must refer to things and thus a word like "cool" must refer to coolness. But I wasn't intending to make that argument (though I didn't say nearly enough in my previous comment to expect everyone to figure that out).

Comment author: wedrifid 26 April 2010 05:57:30PM *  0 points [-]

We're committed to the existence of the bound variables (to exist is to be the value of a bound variable) but not of the properties, there doesn't have to be anything like coolness (assuming that was what you were suggesting).

My reading of Silas's essay (and in particular looking at his diagrams) gave me impression that his '2' is closer to what you would describe as a 'property' than the category in which you put 'Silas'.

Comment author: Jack 26 April 2010 06:20:05PM 0 points [-]

I was just starting from the observation that in our mathematical discourse we treat numbers like objects, not properties. "The number between 2 and 4", "there is a prime number greater than one million", "5 is odd" etc. all treat numbers as objects.

Comment author: wedrifid 27 April 2010 12:36:54AM 0 points [-]

I would call those properties that had properties. But I'm a programmer, not a mathematician or philosopher (so don't know which limitations I'm supposed to have placed around my thinking!)

By the way, I think 'cool' is kinda 'lame' but 'awesomeness' is kinda 'cool'. Just sayin'.