Stuart_Armstrong comments on But Somebody Would Have Noticed - Less Wrong

36 Post author: Alicorn 04 May 2010 06:56PM

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Comment author: cousin_it 05 May 2010 07:35:48AM *  2 points [-]

as long as you have a set of all sets and the ability to take subsets specified by properties, you get Russell's paradox.

Yes, that's true. What I have in mind is restricting the latter ability a bit, by the minimum amount required to get rid of paradoxes. Except if you squint at it the right way, it won't even look like a restriction :-)

I will use the words "set" and "predicate" interchangeably. A predicate is a function that returns True or False. (Of course it doesn't have to be Turing-computable or anything.) It's pretty clear that some predicates exist, e.g. the predicate that always returns False (the empty set) or the one that always returns True (the set of all sets). This seems like a tiny change of terminology, but to me it seems enough to banish Russell's paradox!

Let's see how it works. We try to define the Russell predicate R thusly:

R(X) = not(X(X))

...and fail. This definition is incomplete. The value of R isn't defined on all predicates, because we haven't specified R(R) and can't compute it from the definition. If we additionally specify R(R) to be True or False, the paradox goes away.

To make this a little more precise: I think naive set theory can be made to work by disallowing predicates, like the Russell predicate, that are "incompletely defined" in the above sense. In this new theory we will have "AFA-like" non-well-founded sets (e.g. the Quine atom Q={Q}), and so we will need to define equality through bisimilarity. And that's pretty much all.

As you can see, this is really basic stuff. There's got to be some big idiotic mistake in my thinking - some kind of contradiction in this new notion of "set" - but I haven't found it yet.

EDITED on May 13 2010: I've found a contradiction. You can safely disregard my theory.

Comment author: Stuart_Armstrong 09 May 2010 02:05:50PM 0 points [-]

I can't say anything about this specific construction, but there is a related issue in Turing machines. The issue was whether you could determine a useful subset S of the set of all Turing machines, such that the halting problem is solveable for all machines in S, and S was general enough to contain useful examples.

If I remember correctly, the answer was that you couldn't. This feels a lot like that - I'd bet that the only way of being sure that we can avoid Russel's paradox is to restrict predicates to such a narrow category that we can't do much anything useful with them.